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I agree with you about the injustice that Palestinians face, but I think you have been taught incorrectly about "the native population which Jewish immigrants d

I agree with you about the injustice that Palestinians face, but I think you have been taught incorrectly about "the native population which Jewish immigrants displaced" in a way that rings of anti-Semitism (e.g. the alt-right's calls that "Jews will not replace us," etc). About half of Israel's Jewish population is "Mizrahi," which refers to Jews native to the Middle East, many of whom predate Arab colonization of the Middle East. I know this is a contentious topic in general and I don't think you're intentionally being anti-Semitic, nor do I think all criticism of Israel's treatment of Palestinians is anti-Semitic! But it's easy to also accidentally fall into anti-Semitism when criticizing Israel, since anti-Semitism is so endemic to Western culture, and I think you accidentally did here.

core-questions 6y ago
One does not so much "fall into it" so much as one is accused of it whenever one's opinion about political or military actions runs counter to Zionism.
- reissbaker 6y ago
  I would love it if your response addressed the points in my comment, but it seems like you're deliberately ignoring them. Again, I agree that the Israeli government's treatment of Palestinians is abhorrent. That's not an anti-Semitic opinion! Claiming that Jews are not native to the Middle East and are an attempt to replace Palestinians is factually wrong, though, and does rely on anti-Semitic tropes.
  - pkkim 6y ago
    Yes, Jews are native to the Middle East, specifically the area of Israel/Palestine. But why should that make Palestinians who lost their land feel any better? It's irrelevant.
    - reissbaker 6y ago
      It shouldn't, and it doesn't. I agree that it doesn't and that Israel's treatment of Palestinians is terrible. My point is we can have this discussion without also (incorrectly) relying on anti-Semitic tropes of Jewish replacement. (I am Jewish, but I do not support the Israeli government's treatment of Palestinians.)
  - core-questions 6y ago
    > Claiming that Jews are not native to the Middle East and are an attempt to replace Palestinians is factually wrong, though, You stuck an 'and' between two ideas there. Native? Sure. Not an attempt to replace Palestinians? That's an uphill argument you've carved off for yourself that runs counter to all observable facts. May as well just fall back on the classic "it was our land first" and have done with, since honestly you're not going to come up with any moral justification that holds up any better.
  - andrepd 6y ago
    If we go far enough back, we are all natives of Africa. That's not a helpful way to look at things in the present though.
- yesnomaybeno 6y ago
  Exactly. Israel and its supporters have successfully weaponized accusations of antisemitism to make political attacks. It's actually quite rare to see genuine antisemitism these days. Most of what we see claimed as "antisemitism" is just vague insinuations and associations, or inventing supposed "antisemitic tropes" in what people have said. In fact it's got to the point now where if someone is accused of antisemitism, it's best just to assume it's a malicious accusation with no substance behind it. I mean, when you have the Zionists accusing people like Noam Chomsky and Bernie Sanders of antisemitism, you just know it's a bad faith exercise.
  - core-questions 6y ago
    Truly, we live in fascinating times. One amazing thing is that if you had the exact same politics and policies as a Zionist but for any other cause, the same elite Americans who support Zionism would lambaste you as a maniac.
29athrowaway 6y ago
Define "native". Are you considering 2nd+ generation immigrant as native? What is your definition of native? Most moderns Jewish inhabitants of Eretz Yisrael came via Aliyah no? https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographic_history_of_Palestine_(region) https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographic_history_of_Pales... (you can argue about the title, but just focus on the numbers) By the way, I am part Jew myself and I don't agree with how Zionism was implemented. In your perspective, does that mean I am against myself?
- reissbaker 6y ago
  Mizrahi does not refer to 2nd generation immigrants [1]; it refers to descendants of local Jewish populations in the Middle East. While the Wikipedia demographics link you posted is technically accurate (the best kind of accurate), it doesn't correctly capture Mizrahi Jews, because Mizrahi means native to the Middle East, not specifically to the region called "Palestine," the modern borders of which were defined by the British after WWI. Those borders also include much, much more than just the "Palestine" you're referring to — it includes all of Jordan and part of Syria. Prior to the British occupation, the entire region was part of the Ottoman Empire and had been for hundreds of years; the modern borders and boundaries of various countries were largely invented during the 20th century after the fall of the Ottoman Empire to the Allied Powers. When Israel was founded, most Mizrahi Jews moved to Israel due to extreme persecution in the Muslim-majority countries, which were mostly also all new countries carved up from the remains of the Ottoman Empire. Prior to the borders of the 20th century, these Jews were citizens of the Ottoman Empire just like everyone else in the region, and were native to the Middle East. (The Ottoman empire did have provinces, but they don't match the British borders or the post-British borders.) Mizrahi Jews make up 3.2 million of Israel's Jewish inhabitants [1]. Israel's total Jewish population is 6.7 million [2], so they're about half. Edit: Since this is frequently a contentious topic, I want to reiterate that I do not support the Israeli government's treatment of Palestinians. Israel's treatment of Palestinians is terrible. This post is meant to counter anti-Semitism, not criticism of Israel. In most of my posts in this thread I have also criticized Israel for its treatment of Palestinians. The fact that many Jews are native to the Middle East does not justify depriving Palestinians of land or self-determination. However, I think it's useful in these discussions to not rely on anti-Semitic tropes e.g. the idea that Jews are non-natives and of Jewish replacement. Jews are in fact natives of the Middle East and have been so longer than anyone else (well, ethnic Lebanese people actually give Jews a run for their money, but those are the two longest-dwelling ethnic groups in the region). Edit 2: Since it looks like you're getting downvoted — FYI I didn't downvote you and I think your question was legitimate and wasn't ill-intentioned. 1: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mizrahi_Jews https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mizrahi_Jews 2: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli_Jews https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli_Jews
DSingularity 6y ago
When I said natives I meant Palestinians who were forcefully displaced from their lands. Those lands then turned into colonies which are occupied to this days by Jewish immigrants from Europe, North Africa, and other regions in the Middle East (Yemen, Iraq, Egypt, and Lebanon). I’m not sure how I could have phrased this better to make sure I steer clear of any potential offense.
- ocschwar 6y ago
  You can drop the term "colony", or "colonizer" et cetera. At this point the term means nothing more than "person who deserves to be displaced owing to his ethnicity and present location."
  - andrepd 6y ago
    Modern Israel is absolutely a colonizer state. At around the same time that Western empires were dissolving, mostly Western mostly white settlers colonised a piece of the Middle-East by force. I know the situation is complicated, but this is an accurate description, from a dispassionate point of view.
    - ocschwar 6y ago
      "mostly Western mostly white settlers" There you go. Rationalizing an intent to subject people to ethnic based displacement. (People who at this point are of mixed descent of every Jewish community, including those displaced INTO Israel from the Arab world)
- reissbaker 6y ago
  I posted a longer comment elsewhere in this thread, but in short: prior to the 20th century, everyone in the Middle East were Ottoman citizens, had been for hundreds of years, and the "other [countries] in the Middle East" you reference didn't exist even as provinces of the Ottoman Empire. Mizrahi Jews were Middle Eastern native Jewish citizens of the Ottoman Empire and had lived in the region for thousands of years, predating the Ottoman Empire, and there had not been a meaningful distinction between "Palestine" and "not Palestine" in the empires that ruled there since the fall of the Jewish kingdom (or to some degree the fall of the Roman Empire, when still none of the people you term "native" yet lived there). Palestine was created in the 20th century by the British and existed for less than a few decades as a British colony; effectively no one is a native of "Palestine," they are natives of the region and empires that predated the British, which includes the Jewish natives of the region and empire that predated the British. After the new territories were carved up post-WWI, (some) of those native Jews moved to Israel (although some were already living there and had been for thousands of years) due to persecution, but calling them "immigrants" is about as sensible as calling someone who moves from Connecticut to Massachusetts an "immigrant" — or in fact even less so, because "Palestine" hadn't existed in the Ottoman Empire, and it makes about as much sense as calling someone who moves from one Bay Area city to another an "immigrant." They also didn't move in order to replace Palestinians; they were fleeing extreme anti-Semitic violence from the neighboring (newly created) countries. Your comment seemed to differentiate "Jews" and a "native population," with the non-native Jews having "displaced" the natives. If that's not a distinction you intended to draw, then I think your intentions were totally fine — although your phrasing was easily misinterpreted. If that is the intention you meant to convey, I believe you are in a large part incorrect — the largest subgroup of Israeli Jews are native to the Middle East and have been for thousands of years — and your initial comment (hopefully unintentionally) drew on anti-Semitic tropes of Jewish interlopers and replacers, which are about as old as Western society, on the basis of largely arbitrary, briefly enforced territorial lines drawn up by a European colonial power that had little reflection of the people it attempted and failed to rule. Again, none of this excuses Israeli treatment of their former neighbors. It's atrocious and deserves to be called out. I just want to avoid anti-Semitism when we do so (as I have tried to also do in this thread).
andrepd 6y ago
But Celts have settled the land that is now my country since before Christians conquered the peninsula and established the kingdom that would become my country. By your argument, should the Irish have the right to kick me out, or at least carve a piece of my country for themselves and their ethnic group?
- reissbaker 6y ago
  The Irish literally did kick the UK out and carve a piece back for themselves in 1937, which is around the same timeframe we're talking about Israel in the Middle East. That's why Ireland is an independent country from the UK, and they're still in the EU while the UK isn't. So, er, yes, I suppose by my argument, it was valid for the Irish to do so. Great point on the parallel there. (I think you are possibly misunderstanding what "Mizrahi" refers to. Mizrahi Jews are native to the Middle East and never left and were living there at the time of Israel's founding, as they had been for thousands of years.)

core-questions 6y ago

One does not so much "fall into it" so much as one is accused of it whenever one's opinion about political or military actions runs counter to Zionism.

reissbaker 6y ago
I would love it if your response addressed the points in my comment, but it seems like you're deliberately ignoring them. Again, I agree that the Israeli government's treatment of Palestinians is abhorrent. That's not an anti-Semitic opinion! Claiming that Jews are not native to the Middle East and are an attempt to replace Palestinians is factually wrong, though, and does rely on anti-Semitic tropes.
- pkkim 6y ago
  Yes, Jews are native to the Middle East, specifically the area of Israel/Palestine. But why should that make Palestinians who lost their land feel any better? It's irrelevant.
  - reissbaker 6y ago
    It shouldn't, and it doesn't. I agree that it doesn't and that Israel's treatment of Palestinians is terrible. My point is we can have this discussion without also (incorrectly) relying on anti-Semitic tropes of Jewish replacement. (I am Jewish, but I do not support the Israeli government's treatment of Palestinians.)
- core-questions 6y ago
  > Claiming that Jews are not native to the Middle East and are an attempt to replace Palestinians is factually wrong, though, You stuck an 'and' between two ideas there. Native? Sure. Not an attempt to replace Palestinians? That's an uphill argument you've carved off for yourself that runs counter to all observable facts. May as well just fall back on the classic "it was our land first" and have done with, since honestly you're not going to come up with any moral justification that holds up any better.
- andrepd 6y ago
  If we go far enough back, we are all natives of Africa. That's not a helpful way to look at things in the present though.
yesnomaybeno 6y ago
Exactly. Israel and its supporters have successfully weaponized accusations of antisemitism to make political attacks. It's actually quite rare to see genuine antisemitism these days. Most of what we see claimed as "antisemitism" is just vague insinuations and associations, or inventing supposed "antisemitic tropes" in what people have said. In fact it's got to the point now where if someone is accused of antisemitism, it's best just to assume it's a malicious accusation with no substance behind it. I mean, when you have the Zionists accusing people like Noam Chomsky and Bernie Sanders of antisemitism, you just know it's a bad faith exercise.
- core-questions 6y ago
  Truly, we live in fascinating times. One amazing thing is that if you had the exact same politics and policies as a Zionist but for any other cause, the same elite Americans who support Zionism would lambaste you as a maniac.

29athrowaway 6y ago

Define "native". Are you considering 2nd+ generation immigrant as native? What is your definition of native? Most moderns Jewish inhabitants of Eretz Yisrael came via Aliyah no? https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographic_history_of_Palestine_(region) https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographic_history_of_Pales... (you can argue about the title, but just focus on the numbers) By the way, I am part Jew myself and I don't agree with how Zionism was implemented. In your perspective, does that mean I am against myself?

reissbaker 6y ago
Mizrahi does not refer to 2nd generation immigrants [1]; it refers to descendants of local Jewish populations in the Middle East. While the Wikipedia demographics link you posted is technically accurate (the best kind of accurate), it doesn't correctly capture Mizrahi Jews, because Mizrahi means native to the Middle East, not specifically to the region called "Palestine," the modern borders of which were defined by the British after WWI. Those borders also include much, much more than just the "Palestine" you're referring to — it includes all of Jordan and part of Syria. Prior to the British occupation, the entire region was part of the Ottoman Empire and had been for hundreds of years; the modern borders and boundaries of various countries were largely invented during the 20th century after the fall of the Ottoman Empire to the Allied Powers. When Israel was founded, most Mizrahi Jews moved to Israel due to extreme persecution in the Muslim-majority countries, which were mostly also all new countries carved up from the remains of the Ottoman Empire. Prior to the borders of the 20th century, these Jews were citizens of the Ottoman Empire just like everyone else in the region, and were native to the Middle East. (The Ottoman empire did have provinces, but they don't match the British borders or the post-British borders.) Mizrahi Jews make up 3.2 million of Israel's Jewish inhabitants [1]. Israel's total Jewish population is 6.7 million [2], so they're about half. Edit: Since this is frequently a contentious topic, I want to reiterate that I do not support the Israeli government's treatment of Palestinians. Israel's treatment of Palestinians is terrible. This post is meant to counter anti-Semitism, not criticism of Israel. In most of my posts in this thread I have also criticized Israel for its treatment of Palestinians. The fact that many Jews are native to the Middle East does not justify depriving Palestinians of land or self-determination. However, I think it's useful in these discussions to not rely on anti-Semitic tropes e.g. the idea that Jews are non-natives and of Jewish replacement. Jews are in fact natives of the Middle East and have been so longer than anyone else (well, ethnic Lebanese people actually give Jews a run for their money, but those are the two longest-dwelling ethnic groups in the region). Edit 2: Since it looks like you're getting downvoted — FYI I didn't downvote you and I think your question was legitimate and wasn't ill-intentioned. 1: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mizrahi_Jews https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mizrahi_Jews 2: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli_Jews https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli_Jews

DSingularity 6y ago

When I said natives I meant Palestinians who were forcefully displaced from their lands. Those lands then turned into colonies which are occupied to this days by Jewish immigrants from Europe, North Africa, and other regions in the Middle East (Yemen, Iraq, Egypt, and Lebanon). I’m not sure how I could have phrased this better to make sure I steer clear of any potential offense.

ocschwar 6y ago
You can drop the term "colony", or "colonizer" et cetera. At this point the term means nothing more than "person who deserves to be displaced owing to his ethnicity and present location."
- andrepd 6y ago
  Modern Israel is absolutely a colonizer state. At around the same time that Western empires were dissolving, mostly Western mostly white settlers colonised a piece of the Middle-East by force. I know the situation is complicated, but this is an accurate description, from a dispassionate point of view.
  - ocschwar 6y ago
    "mostly Western mostly white settlers" There you go. Rationalizing an intent to subject people to ethnic based displacement. (People who at this point are of mixed descent of every Jewish community, including those displaced INTO Israel from the Arab world)
reissbaker 6y ago
I posted a longer comment elsewhere in this thread, but in short: prior to the 20th century, everyone in the Middle East were Ottoman citizens, had been for hundreds of years, and the "other [countries] in the Middle East" you reference didn't exist even as provinces of the Ottoman Empire. Mizrahi Jews were Middle Eastern native Jewish citizens of the Ottoman Empire and had lived in the region for thousands of years, predating the Ottoman Empire, and there had not been a meaningful distinction between "Palestine" and "not Palestine" in the empires that ruled there since the fall of the Jewish kingdom (or to some degree the fall of the Roman Empire, when still none of the people you term "native" yet lived there). Palestine was created in the 20th century by the British and existed for less than a few decades as a British colony; effectively no one is a native of "Palestine," they are natives of the region and empires that predated the British, which includes the Jewish natives of the region and empire that predated the British. After the new territories were carved up post-WWI, (some) of those native Jews moved to Israel (although some were already living there and had been for thousands of years) due to persecution, but calling them "immigrants" is about as sensible as calling someone who moves from Connecticut to Massachusetts an "immigrant" — or in fact even less so, because "Palestine" hadn't existed in the Ottoman Empire, and it makes about as much sense as calling someone who moves from one Bay Area city to another an "immigrant." They also didn't move in order to replace Palestinians; they were fleeing extreme anti-Semitic violence from the neighboring (newly created) countries. Your comment seemed to differentiate "Jews" and a "native population," with the non-native Jews having "displaced" the natives. If that's not a distinction you intended to draw, then I think your intentions were totally fine — although your phrasing was easily misinterpreted. If that is the intention you meant to convey, I believe you are in a large part incorrect — the largest subgroup of Israeli Jews are native to the Middle East and have been for thousands of years — and your initial comment (hopefully unintentionally) drew on anti-Semitic tropes of Jewish interlopers and replacers, which are about as old as Western society, on the basis of largely arbitrary, briefly enforced territorial lines drawn up by a European colonial power that had little reflection of the people it attempted and failed to rule. Again, none of this excuses Israeli treatment of their former neighbors. It's atrocious and deserves to be called out. I just want to avoid anti-Semitism when we do so (as I have tried to also do in this thread).

andrepd 6y ago

But Celts have settled the land that is now my country since before Christians conquered the peninsula and established the kingdom that would become my country. By your argument, should the Irish have the right to kick me out, or at least carve a piece of my country for themselves and their ethnic group?

reissbaker 6y ago
The Irish literally did kick the UK out and carve a piece back for themselves in 1937, which is around the same timeframe we're talking about Israel in the Middle East. That's why Ireland is an independent country from the UK, and they're still in the EU while the UK isn't. So, er, yes, I suppose by my argument, it was valid for the Irish to do so. Great point on the parallel there. (I think you are possibly misunderstanding what "Mizrahi" refers to. Mizrahi Jews are native to the Middle East and never left and were living there at the time of Israel's founding, as they had been for thousands of years.)