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Experienced engineers who perform better than a recent graduate are usually not interviewing. They have jobs that pay them extremely well. There's an adverse

Experienced engineers who perform better than a recent graduate are usually not interviewing. They have jobs that pay them extremely well. There's an adverse selection problem with interviewing, in that people who are good tend to disappear from the labor market and when they do appear on the labor market they get snapped up quickly. New grads don't have this adverse selection effect: there is a very good reason why they don't already have a job. This is why companies invest so much in internships: this will often be the only time to snap up a promising young developer before they start building a career at your competitor. https://www.joelonsoftware.com/2006/09/06/finding-great-developers-2/ https://www.joelonsoftware.com/2006/09/06/finding-great-deve...

jmchuster 6y ago
Exactly. People who are good are always going to be referrals, once they've worked at a few places, their networks are just not going to let them get away. The only times I've found where you are interviewing someone experienced who turns out good is 1) someone coming from a big corporate job where they were undervalued/underutilized 2) someone coming from a different region, different country, where they have no local network
- protomyth 6y ago
  Exactly. People who are good are always going to be referrals Only inside a community, not coming from outside.
  - ryandrake 6y ago
    Also, referrals still have to go through interviews, so it's not really unusual to interview someone who is senior and skilled.
  - jmchuster 6y ago
    Right, and that's why we still source and recruit, to pull in people from outside of our community. It just has a much lower hit rate.
  - graeme 6y ago
    That’s not true. You can have people who are in multiple communities refer in someone from outside. I’ve had it happen to me and done it for others.
    - protomyth 6y ago
      Its the old boys club. You do realize there are tons of programmers in just the US that have no contacts with the coasts? This is what makes the Ivy League so valuable which is very good at discriminating over large groups of people. My favorite is businesses and colleges that don't take applicants from PO Boxes.
dvt 6y ago
> Experienced engineers who perform better than a recent graduate are usually not interviewing. They have jobs that pay them extremely well. Doubtful. There is constant churn in tech, as the best way to get a raise is to switch jobs. It's well documented that junior/senior engineers (and beyond) switch jobs, on average, every 2-3 years. Longer tenures are generally favored due to vesting schedules (though I've had several friends ditch Amazon before the [iirc] 4-year cliff).
- cbsks 6y ago
  Is the constant churn just a Silicon Valley thing? I get a raise every year of about 8% which keeps me well compensated even after working at the same job for 8 years. It’s possible the company I work for is an outlier? We have lots of engineers who have been working here for 15+ years. As a result, my interviewing skills have deteriorated significantly. I wouldn’t be surprised if a talented programmer straight out of college could out-interview me even though I have much more experience.
  - bcrosby95 6y ago
    Looking at my friend group, it seems like a mixed bag. We're in our early 40s. About half have been at their current place of employment for close to 10 years now. The other half seem to change jobs every couple of years, although some of those had a long tenure before the recent bought of job swapping (they haven't found a new place they like).
  - TulliusCicero 6y ago
    A steady raise rate of 8% when not being promoted would be phenomenal. After 15 years you'd be triple your original pay, which, for non-promo compensation, is unheard of.
    - cbsks 6y ago
      I agree that it is pretty great. I think triple my starting pay is very doable at my company. I know that the people at the top of the engineering org chart are doing quite well for themselves.
blub 6y ago
Sounds nice and awfully convenient for those supporting the current interviewing practices. But does this apply to all experienced engineers, 50%, 5% ? US only, Europe, Russia, India? We need better proof and better data than a 2006 blog post.
- nostrademons 6y ago
  It doesn't have to apply to all experienced engineers to make a big difference. Say that only 50% of engineers on the job market are bad, but the bad ones apply for 100 jobs and the good ones apply to 2. Then of the interviews conducted, 98% of them will be with bad engineers.

jmchuster 6y ago

Exactly. People who are good are always going to be referrals, once they've worked at a few places, their networks are just not going to let them get away. The only times I've found where you are interviewing someone experienced who turns out good is 1) someone coming from a big corporate job where they were undervalued/underutilized 2) someone coming from a different region, different country, where they have no local network

protomyth 6y ago
Exactly. People who are good are always going to be referrals Only inside a community, not coming from outside.
- ryandrake 6y ago
  Also, referrals still have to go through interviews, so it's not really unusual to interview someone who is senior and skilled.
- jmchuster 6y ago
  Right, and that's why we still source and recruit, to pull in people from outside of our community. It just has a much lower hit rate.
- graeme 6y ago
  That’s not true. You can have people who are in multiple communities refer in someone from outside. I’ve had it happen to me and done it for others.
  - protomyth 6y ago
    Its the old boys club. You do realize there are tons of programmers in just the US that have no contacts with the coasts? This is what makes the Ivy League so valuable which is very good at discriminating over large groups of people. My favorite is businesses and colleges that don't take applicants from PO Boxes.

dvt 6y ago

> Experienced engineers who perform better than a recent graduate are usually not interviewing. They have jobs that pay them extremely well. Doubtful. There is constant churn in tech, as the best way to get a raise is to switch jobs. It's well documented that junior/senior engineers (and beyond) switch jobs, on average, every 2-3 years. Longer tenures are generally favored due to vesting schedules (though I've had several friends ditch Amazon before the [iirc] 4-year cliff).

cbsks 6y ago
Is the constant churn just a Silicon Valley thing? I get a raise every year of about 8% which keeps me well compensated even after working at the same job for 8 years. It’s possible the company I work for is an outlier? We have lots of engineers who have been working here for 15+ years. As a result, my interviewing skills have deteriorated significantly. I wouldn’t be surprised if a talented programmer straight out of college could out-interview me even though I have much more experience.
- bcrosby95 6y ago
  Looking at my friend group, it seems like a mixed bag. We're in our early 40s. About half have been at their current place of employment for close to 10 years now. The other half seem to change jobs every couple of years, although some of those had a long tenure before the recent bought of job swapping (they haven't found a new place they like).
- TulliusCicero 6y ago
  A steady raise rate of 8% when not being promoted would be phenomenal. After 15 years you'd be triple your original pay, which, for non-promo compensation, is unheard of.
  - cbsks 6y ago
    I agree that it is pretty great. I think triple my starting pay is very doable at my company. I know that the people at the top of the engineering org chart are doing quite well for themselves.

blub 6y ago

Sounds nice and awfully convenient for those supporting the current interviewing practices. But does this apply to all experienced engineers, 50%, 5% ? US only, Europe, Russia, India? We need better proof and better data than a 2006 blog post.

nostrademons 6y ago
It doesn't have to apply to all experienced engineers to make a big difference. Say that only 50% of engineers on the job market are bad, but the bad ones apply for 100 jobs and the good ones apply to 2. Then of the interviews conducted, 98% of them will be with bad engineers.