5 ms·

"Economic segregation" is what I wrote, so not just race, but keeping those with less money away from "nice" neighborhoods and their good schools. Plenty of pe

by davidw 6y ago

"Economic segregation" is what I wrote, so not just race, but keeping those with less money away from "nice" neighborhoods and their good schools. Plenty of people who rent might buy if there were more opportunities to do so, which there would be if housing weren't such an artificially scarce good in the US. And when you describe 'those neighborhoods', keep in mind that that's probably a policy. If all neighborhoods had a mix of people, you wouldn't have quite so much of a concentration of people who aren't as wealthy.

u678u 6y ago
> Plenty of people who rent might buy if there were more opportunities to do so, which there would be if housing weren't such an artificially scarce good in the US. America has the cheapest housing in the Developed world. SF is not cheap, but its still cheaper than big cities in Europe.
- davidw 6y ago
  Oh, I know something about that! I own a home in Padova, Italy. Land is mostly cheaper in the US, but Italy and most of Europe provide far more housing options, in large part because they do not impose things like single family zoning. Padova has twice the population of the town where I live here in the US, in about the same area, and housing is cheaper. The economy isn't great there, but that's a separate story from housing. If it were hotter, it's a place where you can simply build homes in many shapes and sizes, from small apartments to nice villas.
  - adolph 6y ago
    Part of real property TCO is taxes. I wonder how Italy stacks up agains comparable areas of other countries. https://www.accountingbolla.com/blog/property-tax-in-italy-guide-for-2020 https://www.accountingbolla.com/blog/property-tax-in-italy-g...
dahfizz 6y ago
> If all neighborhoods had a mix of people, you wouldn't have quite so much of a concentration of people who aren't as wealthy. I don't think this is possible, or even desirable. A huge part of a home's value is the neighborhood. How much crime is there? How good are the schools? How are the neighbors? A "fancy" house and an "affordable" house in the same neighborhood are not going to have a large price difference. If you revert every neighborhood to the mean, then you more or less revert all property prices to the mean. Which means you have erased all the "affordable" housing options, and also reduced the QOL of the top 50% of people.
- AnthonyMouse 6y ago
  You're missing the simple factor of square footage. A 1000 sq ft unit is going to be about a quarter of the price of a 4000 sq ft one for the simple reason that otherwise the larger unit would be subdivided or vice versa. So people with less money get less space, but that doesn't mean they can't live on the same street. Also, even to the extent that values are dominated by other factors, the intention is to increase housing availability through higher supply and lower prices. All housing becoming as expensive as upper middle class housing would be a problem, but all housing becoming as affordable as existing low income housing would be great.
  - dahfizz 6y ago
    This only applies to "units", not houses. A similar rule could apply to lot size, but lot size only makes up a fraction of the value of a house.
    - davidw 6y ago
      It's telling that so often, in the US, we refer to "units" in things like apartments, but it's a "single family home".
    - AnthonyMouse 6y ago
      > This only applies to "units", not houses. Your expectation is that a 1000 sq ft "house" on a quarter acre of land would cost on the order of the same amount as a 4000 sq ft "house" on a full acre of land?
foolinaround 6y ago
some neighbourhoods are nice in and of themselves, due to their geography, proximity, etc. most however are good only because of the people that reside in it. When people of different classes ( not races ) have different opinions on what 'good' means, there is only going to be confusion. even a good neighborhood, once it is deemed as undesirable, will lose its values, its taxes, and soon, its schools.

by davidw 6y ago

u678u 6y ago

> Plenty of people who rent might buy if there were more opportunities to do so, which there would be if housing weren't such an artificially scarce good in the US. America has the cheapest housing in the Developed world. SF is not cheap, but its still cheaper than big cities in Europe.

davidw 6y ago
Oh, I know something about that! I own a home in Padova, Italy. Land is mostly cheaper in the US, but Italy and most of Europe provide far more housing options, in large part because they do not impose things like single family zoning. Padova has twice the population of the town where I live here in the US, in about the same area, and housing is cheaper. The economy isn't great there, but that's a separate story from housing. If it were hotter, it's a place where you can simply build homes in many shapes and sizes, from small apartments to nice villas.
- adolph 6y ago
  Part of real property TCO is taxes. I wonder how Italy stacks up agains comparable areas of other countries. https://www.accountingbolla.com/blog/property-tax-in-italy-guide-for-2020 https://www.accountingbolla.com/blog/property-tax-in-italy-g...

dahfizz 6y ago

> If all neighborhoods had a mix of people, you wouldn't have quite so much of a concentration of people who aren't as wealthy. I don't think this is possible, or even desirable. A huge part of a home's value is the neighborhood. How much crime is there? How good are the schools? How are the neighbors? A "fancy" house and an "affordable" house in the same neighborhood are not going to have a large price difference. If you revert every neighborhood to the mean, then you more or less revert all property prices to the mean. Which means you have erased all the "affordable" housing options, and also reduced the QOL of the top 50% of people.

AnthonyMouse 6y ago
You're missing the simple factor of square footage. A 1000 sq ft unit is going to be about a quarter of the price of a 4000 sq ft one for the simple reason that otherwise the larger unit would be subdivided or vice versa. So people with less money get less space, but that doesn't mean they can't live on the same street. Also, even to the extent that values are dominated by other factors, the intention is to increase housing availability through higher supply and lower prices. All housing becoming as expensive as upper middle class housing would be a problem, but all housing becoming as affordable as existing low income housing would be great.
- dahfizz 6y ago
  This only applies to "units", not houses. A similar rule could apply to lot size, but lot size only makes up a fraction of the value of a house.
  - davidw 6y ago
    It's telling that so often, in the US, we refer to "units" in things like apartments, but it's a "single family home".
  - AnthonyMouse 6y ago
    > This only applies to "units", not houses. Your expectation is that a 1000 sq ft "house" on a quarter acre of land would cost on the order of the same amount as a 4000 sq ft "house" on a full acre of land?

foolinaround 6y ago

some neighbourhoods are nice in and of themselves, due to their geography, proximity, etc. most however are good only because of the people that reside in it. When people of different classes ( not races ) have different opinions on what 'good' means, there is only going to be confusion. even a good neighborhood, once it is deemed as undesirable, will lose its values, its taxes, and soon, its schools.