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Your argument seems to be against all zoning of intensity, possibly against all zoning period, and doesn't address the fact that living in a rowhouse across the

Your argument seems to be against all zoning of intensity, possibly against all zoning period, and doesn't address the fact that living in a rowhouse across the street from a high-rise building or factory can suck. Certainly, R1 zoning is a scourge: low-intensity should never mean "large lot, huge setback, short house, one door". Certainly, also, a land value tax that is allowed to grow with actual value should charge folks based on what they're taking from society by living somewhere (or whatever other use), to make single-family homes and parking lots and the like pay their fair share if they are going to exist. But I still think you might be making too sweeping of a statement in this post.

endisneigh 6y ago
My argument is not about zoning at all - it's about democracy and the will of a population. In your example, if the majority of the people don't want the factory or high-rise building to be there, it won't be there. And if they do, who are you, or I to say otherwise? You either believe majority rules, or not. I happen to believe the former, but I do see many comments or believe the latter.
- whimsicalism 6y ago
  > You either believe majority rules, or not Coming up with a procedure to translate the opinions of people into actions by the state is not a yes/no question. There's the nuance of direct vs. representative, appointees, how things are structured. You can't boil down political philosophy to an "either/or" on democracy.
Schiendelman 6y ago
Zoning period only exists to stop people of particular races from moving into neighborhoods. All the other things we see as benefits of zoning came later, in order to justify that original reason. And most of the things we assume zoning is protecting us from are misunderstandings. "A rowhouse across the street from a high rise building or factory" is not something government has any constitutional basis to regulate on its own; all that comes from a court case that was pretty explicitly to keep black people away from white people.
- caturopath 6y ago
  > Zoning period only exists to stop people of particular races from moving into neighborhoods. This is NOT true. The initial zoning was to separate incompatible industrial uses from urban uses. A long time ago, people built nasty factories across from housing, a quality of life and public health disaster. US zoning is a disaster again, of course: we have very little mixing for compatible uses (for example low-intensity commercial use near residential) and huge swaths of inefficient low-intensity zoning. ----- That being said, the story of American suburbanization is CERTAINLY a story about race, and I didn't mean to imply otherwise. R1 was invented mostly to discriminate against Black people. > "A rowhouse across the street from a high rise building or factory" is not something government has any constitutional basis to regulate on its own Where in the California constitution are the relevant limits/enumerations on Berkeley's powers?
  - Schiendelman 6y ago
    You are deeply mistaken in your first statement; though I appreciate you at least acknowledge race, that’s entirely what created zoning. I highly recommend any of the books on the subject. “The Color of Law” is the best IMO. Factories have always been built across from housing, and we’ve never stopped that with zoning. We only stopped it from happening to white people.

endisneigh 6y ago

My argument is not about zoning at all - it's about democracy and the will of a population. In your example, if the majority of the people don't want the factory or high-rise building to be there, it won't be there. And if they do, who are you, or I to say otherwise? You either believe majority rules, or not. I happen to believe the former, but I do see many comments or believe the latter.

whimsicalism 6y ago
> You either believe majority rules, or not Coming up with a procedure to translate the opinions of people into actions by the state is not a yes/no question. There's the nuance of direct vs. representative, appointees, how things are structured. You can't boil down political philosophy to an "either/or" on democracy.

Schiendelman 6y ago

Zoning period only exists to stop people of particular races from moving into neighborhoods. All the other things we see as benefits of zoning came later, in order to justify that original reason. And most of the things we assume zoning is protecting us from are misunderstandings. "A rowhouse across the street from a high rise building or factory" is not something government has any constitutional basis to regulate on its own; all that comes from a court case that was pretty explicitly to keep black people away from white people.

caturopath 6y ago
> Zoning period only exists to stop people of particular races from moving into neighborhoods. This is NOT true. The initial zoning was to separate incompatible industrial uses from urban uses. A long time ago, people built nasty factories across from housing, a quality of life and public health disaster. US zoning is a disaster again, of course: we have very little mixing for compatible uses (for example low-intensity commercial use near residential) and huge swaths of inefficient low-intensity zoning. ----- That being said, the story of American suburbanization is CERTAINLY a story about race, and I didn't mean to imply otherwise. R1 was invented mostly to discriminate against Black people. > "A rowhouse across the street from a high rise building or factory" is not something government has any constitutional basis to regulate on its own Where in the California constitution are the relevant limits/enumerations on Berkeley's powers?
- Schiendelman 6y ago
  You are deeply mistaken in your first statement; though I appreciate you at least acknowledge race, that’s entirely what created zoning. I highly recommend any of the books on the subject. “The Color of Law” is the best IMO. Factories have always been built across from housing, and we’ve never stopped that with zoning. We only stopped it from happening to white people.