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I chose a page more or less at random and ended up in the knife fight section [1]. Some of the techniques listed there are techniques I had seen before in self-

I chose a page more or less at random and ended up in the knife fight section [1]. Some of the techniques listed there are techniques I had seen before in self-defense courses. Which leads me to the same question I had at that moment: how reliable are these techniques in a real-life setting? We know that Andre Lignitzer was a great sword master, but how often did he face attackers trying to stab him in the face? The fact that the same techniques keep showing up in different martial arts gives me hope that they must be at least good. Still, it would be great to have first person accounts of how these techniques fare in real life. As this guy [2] points out, a real-life knife fight is probably not as easy as one thinks. [1] https://www.wiktenauer.com/wiki/Andre_Lignitzer#Dagger https://www.wiktenauer.com/wiki/Andre_Lignitzer#Dagger [2] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E61jnJe_1SI https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E61jnJe_1SI

stinkytaco 6y ago
Does one think that a knife fight in real life would be easy? Anyone with even a basic level of martial arts training knows that if a knife comes out, someone is getting cut. I would say that most people instinctually know that if someone pulls a knife, this is a situation they want out of. But to answer your question, many martial artists train with weapons. It's fairly easy to use a dummy knife to simulate real combat without harming anyone. And many fighters throughout history would have trained with weapons to simulate real combat. I cannot speak for these knife techniques in particular because that was never my specialty, but there are plenty of legitimate techniques out there. In terms of what they are teaching in self defense classes, I find that a very mixed bag. Some focus strictly on tricks that seem cool to the untrained, but are hard to pull off in real life without a great deal of practice, while some instructors take a more realistic approach (be aware, have a plan, use a minimum of physical technique to extricate yourself as quickly as possible)
- jlangemeier 6y ago
  This exactly; most of my martial arts training has included the caveat of "try and de-escalate" as a form of neutralizing the weapon/target, including just talking with them, there are a myriad of ways to talk someone down from stabby-stabby or shooty-shooty unless they are intent on that purpose alone (and you're pretty screwed at that point without a lot of training), so verbal de-escalation techniques are almost more important than a disarm technique, which should be an absolute last resort.
- hutzlibu 6y ago
  "Anyone with even a basic level of martial arts training knows that if a knife comes out, someone is getting cut." I think that is a bit overdramatic. I would say, most of the time when a knifes come, nothing happens, except for exchange of bad words. (seen that) And a professional would not show his knife. The great advantage and danger of a knife is, that it is a hidden weapon. Revealed (and used) only in the right moment, if necessary - as a surprise. And self-defense against a knife. Well, the basics are actually quite easy - if you see a enemy with a knife - grab a stick. Or a chair. Or a rock. Keep distance. Only if you are really superior trained and you face against a drunken idiot for example, about to do something stupid against someone else - then you should consider doing some of your special moves to disarm. But talking them out of it, should be prefered.
  - stinkytaco 6y ago
    > I think that is a bit overdramatic. I would say, most of the time when a knifes come, nothing happens, except for exchange of bad words. (seen that) I guess I should have used the words "attacked with a knife". My point is that movie combat where an armed attacker is quickly disarmed and detained is quite rare. If a weapon gets involved in combat, someone's getting hurt. Even if you grab a chair, etc. it's still likely one of you are getting hurt, even if you win. Which brings us back around to the core point that I think we agree on: don't get involved in a knife fight, or really any fight if it can be avoided.
    - hutzlibu 6y ago
      Yeah, I actually know what you meant and it was maybe a bit pedantic from me. So, to take that further: "if in a close combat situation a knive gets drawn, it is very likely that someone will get cut" would have been the wordy formal correct version ;)
jlangemeier 6y ago
Haven't been in any knife fights recently; but have done practice with "live weapons" and the base of the techniques are fairly solid. How likely are you to use them in an actual confrontation though? Probably not likely, you would have to be put in a situation where other forms of neutralizing the situation are not possible (this includes running the fuck away); and at that point, primary importance is having a very limited set of general techniques that can be applied in multiple situation with the weapon so that through practice and training it's more of an autonomic function of your body (you don't want the lag of having to 'think' about which technique to use); secondary importance is experience with these situations - i.e. one of the marital arts groups I worked with would have us go to, and shoot at, a firing range so that we were used to the sounds that a gun would make at close range so that we were used to it in the unenviable case of being in that situation. Generally, disarm techniques are going to be extremely similar, but with any sharp object it's going to be - expect to get cut, deflect with non-vital parts of your body (such as the outsides of your arms, not the supple insides of your wrists), and neutralize the weapon as quickly and safely as possible. Some martial arts systems even have scarf techniques for doing disarms with soft objects from a distance (it's super cool seeing someone do a gun disarm with a cloth/scarf).
- hutzlibu 6y ago
  "(it's super cool seeing someone do a gun disarm with a cloth/scarf). " Don't try that in real life, though. And definitely not against a person who know what he's doing. Unless you really have no choice and are about to be beheaded by Taliban or alike. And to the technics from the Book, well, from first glance they seem to work. But the description seems very static. "when the enemy does this, you do this - and then this and then this". Well, doing so is a good practice to get a feel for what is possible - but never try to do that exactly in a real combat. Because a real situation is always more complex. Nobody is ever moving like in a book. There are variations. In speed, in position and in a fraction of a second the enemy knive can move another way. There are obstacles around you (that can also be weapons to throw or just distract). There are often other people around who complicate or ease things. There is the sun that can blind the oponent, or you, etc. etc.
hef19898 6y ago
The main difference beween back then and todays is the fact that basically everyone back then carried at least a long dagger. Whch chnages the dynamic of a fight, if I'm the only one with a knife I don't have to worry about getting hurt. If the other guy has a pointy, cutty weapon as well that's not the case. If a technique shows up in various treaties from multiple countries, and cultures, it is quite likely legit in its context. Also funny how similar, equal even, HEMA wrestling and Japanese Jiu-Jitsu is. Not surprising, both thing are a solution to the problem going close with someone with a bladed weapon.
nitwit005 6y ago
Any one person isn't going to have all that many people attempt to stab them with a knife. At best you might get someone who has talked to a number of people who were trained in some technique and have been in knife fights.
alfiedotwtf 6y ago
> Which leads me to the same question I had at that moment: how reliable are these techniques in a real-life setting? We know that Andre Lignitzer was a great sword master, but how often did he face attackers trying to stab him in the face? Martial arts is about raising the probability of your opponent dying before you. So if two people had knives, the person trained with knife fighting would more than likely be better off than the person who didn’t have raining. ... but what’s also been taught in different schools of Kung Fu, is if they have a knife and you don’t have anything - run!

stinkytaco 6y ago

Does one think that a knife fight in real life would be easy? Anyone with even a basic level of martial arts training knows that if a knife comes out, someone is getting cut. I would say that most people instinctually know that if someone pulls a knife, this is a situation they want out of. But to answer your question, many martial artists train with weapons. It's fairly easy to use a dummy knife to simulate real combat without harming anyone. And many fighters throughout history would have trained with weapons to simulate real combat. I cannot speak for these knife techniques in particular because that was never my specialty, but there are plenty of legitimate techniques out there. In terms of what they are teaching in self defense classes, I find that a very mixed bag. Some focus strictly on tricks that seem cool to the untrained, but are hard to pull off in real life without a great deal of practice, while some instructors take a more realistic approach (be aware, have a plan, use a minimum of physical technique to extricate yourself as quickly as possible)

jlangemeier 6y ago
This exactly; most of my martial arts training has included the caveat of "try and de-escalate" as a form of neutralizing the weapon/target, including just talking with them, there are a myriad of ways to talk someone down from stabby-stabby or shooty-shooty unless they are intent on that purpose alone (and you're pretty screwed at that point without a lot of training), so verbal de-escalation techniques are almost more important than a disarm technique, which should be an absolute last resort.
hutzlibu 6y ago
"Anyone with even a basic level of martial arts training knows that if a knife comes out, someone is getting cut." I think that is a bit overdramatic. I would say, most of the time when a knifes come, nothing happens, except for exchange of bad words. (seen that) And a professional would not show his knife. The great advantage and danger of a knife is, that it is a hidden weapon. Revealed (and used) only in the right moment, if necessary - as a surprise. And self-defense against a knife. Well, the basics are actually quite easy - if you see a enemy with a knife - grab a stick. Or a chair. Or a rock. Keep distance. Only if you are really superior trained and you face against a drunken idiot for example, about to do something stupid against someone else - then you should consider doing some of your special moves to disarm. But talking them out of it, should be prefered.
- stinkytaco 6y ago
  > I think that is a bit overdramatic. I would say, most of the time when a knifes come, nothing happens, except for exchange of bad words. (seen that) I guess I should have used the words "attacked with a knife". My point is that movie combat where an armed attacker is quickly disarmed and detained is quite rare. If a weapon gets involved in combat, someone's getting hurt. Even if you grab a chair, etc. it's still likely one of you are getting hurt, even if you win. Which brings us back around to the core point that I think we agree on: don't get involved in a knife fight, or really any fight if it can be avoided.
  - hutzlibu 6y ago
    Yeah, I actually know what you meant and it was maybe a bit pedantic from me. So, to take that further: "if in a close combat situation a knive gets drawn, it is very likely that someone will get cut" would have been the wordy formal correct version ;)

jlangemeier 6y ago

Haven't been in any knife fights recently; but have done practice with "live weapons" and the base of the techniques are fairly solid. How likely are you to use them in an actual confrontation though? Probably not likely, you would have to be put in a situation where other forms of neutralizing the situation are not possible (this includes running the fuck away); and at that point, primary importance is having a very limited set of general techniques that can be applied in multiple situation with the weapon so that through practice and training it's more of an autonomic function of your body (you don't want the lag of having to 'think' about which technique to use); secondary importance is experience with these situations - i.e. one of the marital arts groups I worked with would have us go to, and shoot at, a firing range so that we were used to the sounds that a gun would make at close range so that we were used to it in the unenviable case of being in that situation. Generally, disarm techniques are going to be extremely similar, but with any sharp object it's going to be - expect to get cut, deflect with non-vital parts of your body (such as the outsides of your arms, not the supple insides of your wrists), and neutralize the weapon as quickly and safely as possible. Some martial arts systems even have scarf techniques for doing disarms with soft objects from a distance (it's super cool seeing someone do a gun disarm with a cloth/scarf).

hutzlibu 6y ago
"(it's super cool seeing someone do a gun disarm with a cloth/scarf). " Don't try that in real life, though. And definitely not against a person who know what he's doing. Unless you really have no choice and are about to be beheaded by Taliban or alike. And to the technics from the Book, well, from first glance they seem to work. But the description seems very static. "when the enemy does this, you do this - and then this and then this". Well, doing so is a good practice to get a feel for what is possible - but never try to do that exactly in a real combat. Because a real situation is always more complex. Nobody is ever moving like in a book. There are variations. In speed, in position and in a fraction of a second the enemy knive can move another way. There are obstacles around you (that can also be weapons to throw or just distract). There are often other people around who complicate or ease things. There is the sun that can blind the oponent, or you, etc. etc.

hef19898 6y ago

The main difference beween back then and todays is the fact that basically everyone back then carried at least a long dagger. Whch chnages the dynamic of a fight, if I'm the only one with a knife I don't have to worry about getting hurt. If the other guy has a pointy, cutty weapon as well that's not the case. If a technique shows up in various treaties from multiple countries, and cultures, it is quite likely legit in its context. Also funny how similar, equal even, HEMA wrestling and Japanese Jiu-Jitsu is. Not surprising, both thing are a solution to the problem going close with someone with a bladed weapon.

nitwit005 6y ago

Any one person isn't going to have all that many people attempt to stab them with a knife. At best you might get someone who has talked to a number of people who were trained in some technique and have been in knife fights.

alfiedotwtf 6y ago

> Which leads me to the same question I had at that moment: how reliable are these techniques in a real-life setting? We know that Andre Lignitzer was a great sword master, but how often did he face attackers trying to stab him in the face? Martial arts is about raising the probability of your opponent dying before you. So if two people had knives, the person trained with knife fighting would more than likely be better off than the person who didn’t have raining. ... but what’s also been taught in different schools of Kung Fu, is if they have a knife and you don’t have anything - run!