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Boys do as they are taught. its not role models, its expectations. I as a man am not expected to become a carer. I am not expected to be a nurse. I am not exp

Boys do as they are taught. its not role models, its expectations. I as a man am not expected to become a carer. I am not expected to be a nurse. I am not expected to show emotion. I am expected to fight, talk through grunting and like sports. Girls are taught to be girls, they must be nice, they must smile, they must care, they must be demure. Now, this is automatic. You treat others how you see others being treated, unless you have reason to change your behavior. > I've spent all my evenings of the last month on my latest electronics project. Do you think I'm doing that just because Charles Babbage also had a penis? nope. but, try this: obsess over caring for orphans, injured animals, restoring habitats, etc etc. Kinda naff right? Its equally as hard as electronics, requires the same level of science. But its not done by boys because its "what girls do"

castlecrasher2 6y ago
This comment is strange to me, since the women I've seen that do the best work, particularly my CS high school teacher, were as hard-nosed as any man in the field; e.g., they knew their stuff and didn't let anyone else tell them otherwise. I don't think that sort of attitude comes from anywhere but the family unit. All this talk of orgs needing to cater to otherwise non-applicants and governments needing to intervene is just barking up the wrong tree.
- KaiserPro 6y ago
  I have explicitly argued against hard intervention by government. I am not asking for state mandated _anything_ I am arguing for a societal change. For example I'm asking for adults to stop telling my daughter that her mum isn't a doctor, that I am. I want them to stop telling off my daughter when she says that I am the one that combs/washes/plaits her hair. I want them to stop yanking soft toys from my son saying "only girls play with soft toys" > All this talk of orgs needing to cater to otherwise non-applicants Nothing I have suggested is this.
globular-toast 6y ago
> I as a man am not expected to become a carer. I am not expected to be a nurse. I am not expected to show emotion. I am expected to fight, talk through grunting and like sports. Guess what, I wasn't "expected" to become a programmer either. I was outcast and bullied in school for being a geek and a boffin. I still did it, though, because I don't give a toss what you or anyone else says I should do. I don't fight, nor do I like sports. As for girls being taught to be nice etc., are you suggesting we teach them to be not nice? Or maybe you think they are all naturally unpleasant but they've been taught to have a nice façade? Personally I think girls who are nice are nice because they are nice. But that's just me. Who says caring for orphans or injured animals is naff? You? Certainly not me. I honestly don't know a single person who thinks that. You vastly overestimate the importance of nurture in all of this. Think about it: even if we assume boys and girls are treated differently, why is it that some boys grow up to be programmers while others grow up to wipe shit off toilets? They had exactly the same education. Exactly the same opportunities. Why would did one choose to earn a pittance wiping shit over earning loads sitting at a desk?
- KaiserPro 6y ago
  > They had exactly the same education. Exactly the same opportunities. a working class boy has the same education and opportunities as a boy going to a boarding school? At my school I was expected to become a builder, farm hand or similar. Its only because I had parents with enough time and education to _expect_ me to be different. My genetics are not superior, had I been adopted at 3 weeks and given to a posh couple, I'd have been a lawyer, or "business man". Had I been given to an inner city working class couple, most likely I'd be in jail now, knowing the shit I got up to as teenager.
  - globular-toast 6y ago
    > a working class boy has the same education and opportunities as a boy going to a boarding school? I didn't say that, but even within the same school, people end up doing different things. I went to one of the worst schools in the country. When it was closed down the OFSTED report said it was in the "most deprived area in the country". We could certainly talk about the differences in opportunities between being rich and being poor in this country. The class system is alive and well. No matter how hard I try I will never be part of the elite Oxbridge club in this country. And realistically speaking poor people can't become rich just by hard work. Being rich requires inheritance. But that's a different issue. Rich people have just as many girls as boys. Rich girls have far more opportunities than poor boys, yet still we see more boys end up in tech than girls. You might say the same barriers exist throughout all layers of society, but then tell me why if I go on Github and pick any random project, it was in all likelihood written by a man? There are rich women out there with not a shred of responsibility and all the time in the world to dedicate to programming. But they don't. Because they don't want to.

castlecrasher2 6y ago

This comment is strange to me, since the women I've seen that do the best work, particularly my CS high school teacher, were as hard-nosed as any man in the field; e.g., they knew their stuff and didn't let anyone else tell them otherwise. I don't think that sort of attitude comes from anywhere but the family unit. All this talk of orgs needing to cater to otherwise non-applicants and governments needing to intervene is just barking up the wrong tree.

KaiserPro 6y ago
I have explicitly argued against hard intervention by government. I am not asking for state mandated _anything_ I am arguing for a societal change. For example I'm asking for adults to stop telling my daughter that her mum isn't a doctor, that I am. I want them to stop telling off my daughter when she says that I am the one that combs/washes/plaits her hair. I want them to stop yanking soft toys from my son saying "only girls play with soft toys" > All this talk of orgs needing to cater to otherwise non-applicants Nothing I have suggested is this.

globular-toast 6y ago

> I as a man am not expected to become a carer. I am not expected to be a nurse. I am not expected to show emotion. I am expected to fight, talk through grunting and like sports. Guess what, I wasn't "expected" to become a programmer either. I was outcast and bullied in school for being a geek and a boffin. I still did it, though, because I don't give a toss what you or anyone else says I should do. I don't fight, nor do I like sports. As for girls being taught to be nice etc., are you suggesting we teach them to be not nice? Or maybe you think they are all naturally unpleasant but they've been taught to have a nice façade? Personally I think girls who are nice are nice because they are nice. But that's just me. Who says caring for orphans or injured animals is naff? You? Certainly not me. I honestly don't know a single person who thinks that. You vastly overestimate the importance of nurture in all of this. Think about it: even if we assume boys and girls are treated differently, why is it that some boys grow up to be programmers while others grow up to wipe shit off toilets? They had exactly the same education. Exactly the same opportunities. Why would did one choose to earn a pittance wiping shit over earning loads sitting at a desk?

KaiserPro 6y ago
> They had exactly the same education. Exactly the same opportunities. a working class boy has the same education and opportunities as a boy going to a boarding school? At my school I was expected to become a builder, farm hand or similar. Its only because I had parents with enough time and education to _expect_ me to be different. My genetics are not superior, had I been adopted at 3 weeks and given to a posh couple, I'd have been a lawyer, or "business man". Had I been given to an inner city working class couple, most likely I'd be in jail now, knowing the shit I got up to as teenager.
- globular-toast 6y ago
  > a working class boy has the same education and opportunities as a boy going to a boarding school? I didn't say that, but even within the same school, people end up doing different things. I went to one of the worst schools in the country. When it was closed down the OFSTED report said it was in the "most deprived area in the country". We could certainly talk about the differences in opportunities between being rich and being poor in this country. The class system is alive and well. No matter how hard I try I will never be part of the elite Oxbridge club in this country. And realistically speaking poor people can't become rich just by hard work. Being rich requires inheritance. But that's a different issue. Rich people have just as many girls as boys. Rich girls have far more opportunities than poor boys, yet still we see more boys end up in tech than girls. You might say the same barriers exist throughout all layers of society, but then tell me why if I go on Github and pick any random project, it was in all likelihood written by a man? There are rich women out there with not a shred of responsibility and all the time in the world to dedicate to programming. But they don't. Because they don't want to.