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Queue the Doctor / Lawyer married couple with 2.5 kids who vacation twice a year, lease German cars, and have positive net worth crying about 'only being middle

Queue the Doctor / Lawyer married couple with 2.5 kids who vacation twice a year, lease German cars, and have positive net worth crying about 'only being middle class'.

derivagral 6y ago
Technically, aren't they right? Middle class typically means you still have to work, strictly speaking. I'm going off of https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_class#Three-level_economic_class_model https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_class#Three-level_econo...
- alistairSH 6y ago
  Depends who you ask, or the context. Anecdotally, software developers, being more math-minded than average, tend to think of middle-class literally - the middle third or middle quintile of income distribution.
  - opportune 6y ago
    That has never been the meaning of the term historically and doesn’t capture the magnitudes-difference between the middle and upper classes.
    - alistairSH 6y ago
      I agree. I was just pointing out that there is a portion of the HN readership that tends to use the strictly economic definition (rightly or wrongly). Also, the meaning has shifted over time. As used in the early 1900s - I realize the term was coined even earlier than that - it referred to what today we'd likely call upper-middle-class (or if you're a fan of Engles, the bourgeoisie). White-collar, professional, well-educated, but not rich/powerful/nobility. It excluded almost the entirety of the working-class (even those who, by income, were well above poverty). More recently, usage in the US has trended towards anybody above poverty but not quite rich (and choose your own definition of rich to suit your point). Which itself includes a massive span of incomes and lifestyles.
      - rjsw 6y ago
        The usage hasn't really changed in the UK.
- leetcrew 6y ago
  depends how you slice it. "have to work" is kind of a vague way to define class membership. someone with a $500k net worth doesn't "have to work" if they're content with living on $20k/year or so. of course, if you insist on sending your children to private school and taking them to europe every year, this is going to be unworkable. most people tend to think what they have isn't quite enough, twice as much would be just right, and anything more than that is excessive.
rjsw 6y ago
If they were upper class they wouldn't have to queue ?
bluGill 6y ago
Odds are good the couple you mention are in fact negative net worth, or close to it. They don't own the car. Every time their house goes up in value they refinance and take the cash out to pay for the vacation. Generally those with a significant net worth live more modest lives - older cars (they might buy new, but that is because they know if they do the maintenance it will last for 15-20 years). The house might be nice for the neighborhood, but it won't be in the rich part of town. They might vacation twice a year, but they will be cheap vacations. The difference goes into funding their retirement plan, and some other savings.
- lotsofpulp 6y ago
  In the US, a doctor/lawyer dual income couple should be earning at least $300k, if not $500k+ per year. Source: https://www.medscape.com/slideshow/2020-compensation-overview-6012684 https://www.medscape.com/slideshow/2020-compensation-overvie... Even with $600k to $800k ($4k to $6k per month loan payments) of student loans, they should be able to pull off a decent lifestyle and be positive net worth by their mid 40s.
  - johncessna 6y ago
    Income doesn't equate to wealth. You have to look at the other side of the equation, outgo, to determine what someone's net worth is. In addition to student loans, there's the house payment. People tend to buy a house based on what they can be approved for, not based off of a budget number they developed before talking to a bank. A 300k salary will get you pre-approved for a a lot of house in the US. Docs and Lawyers also fall into the trap of buying practices, so that's another factor. The biggest factor you're missing in your assumption, though, is that personal finance problems are largely behavioral. There's a parallel with personal health. The difference is that people know more about how to lose weight and be healthy - and still don't do it - then people who actually know how to make good financial decisions. Even those who know they shouldn't buy things they can't afford, routinely do so for whatever reason they have been told or have invented. For what it's worth, the study by Ramsey Solutions says that the top 5 careers for becoming a millionaire are engineers, teachers, CPAs, attorneys, and management. While some of those are vague and capture a large range of professions, Docs are conspicuously missing.
triceratops 6y ago
Nit: It's "cue" as in "stage cue".

Queue the Doctor / Lawyer married couple with 2.5 kids who vacation twice a year, lease German cars, and have positive net worth crying about 'only being middle class'.

derivagral 6y ago

Technically, aren't they right? Middle class typically means you still have to work, strictly speaking. I'm going off of https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_class#Three-level_economic_class_model https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_class#Three-level_econo...

alistairSH 6y ago
Depends who you ask, or the context. Anecdotally, software developers, being more math-minded than average, tend to think of middle-class literally - the middle third or middle quintile of income distribution.
- opportune 6y ago
  That has never been the meaning of the term historically and doesn’t capture the magnitudes-difference between the middle and upper classes.
  - alistairSH 6y ago
    I agree. I was just pointing out that there is a portion of the HN readership that tends to use the strictly economic definition (rightly or wrongly). Also, the meaning has shifted over time. As used in the early 1900s - I realize the term was coined even earlier than that - it referred to what today we'd likely call upper-middle-class (or if you're a fan of Engles, the bourgeoisie). White-collar, professional, well-educated, but not rich/powerful/nobility. It excluded almost the entirety of the working-class (even those who, by income, were well above poverty). More recently, usage in the US has trended towards anybody above poverty but not quite rich (and choose your own definition of rich to suit your point). Which itself includes a massive span of incomes and lifestyles.
    - rjsw 6y ago
      The usage hasn't really changed in the UK.
leetcrew 6y ago
depends how you slice it. "have to work" is kind of a vague way to define class membership. someone with a $500k net worth doesn't "have to work" if they're content with living on $20k/year or so. of course, if you insist on sending your children to private school and taking them to europe every year, this is going to be unworkable. most people tend to think what they have isn't quite enough, twice as much would be just right, and anything more than that is excessive.

rjsw 6y ago

If they were upper class they wouldn't have to queue ?

bluGill 6y ago

Odds are good the couple you mention are in fact negative net worth, or close to it. They don't own the car. Every time their house goes up in value they refinance and take the cash out to pay for the vacation. Generally those with a significant net worth live more modest lives - older cars (they might buy new, but that is because they know if they do the maintenance it will last for 15-20 years). The house might be nice for the neighborhood, but it won't be in the rich part of town. They might vacation twice a year, but they will be cheap vacations. The difference goes into funding their retirement plan, and some other savings.

lotsofpulp 6y ago
In the US, a doctor/lawyer dual income couple should be earning at least $300k, if not $500k+ per year. Source: https://www.medscape.com/slideshow/2020-compensation-overview-6012684 https://www.medscape.com/slideshow/2020-compensation-overvie... Even with $600k to $800k ($4k to $6k per month loan payments) of student loans, they should be able to pull off a decent lifestyle and be positive net worth by their mid 40s.
- johncessna 6y ago
  Income doesn't equate to wealth. You have to look at the other side of the equation, outgo, to determine what someone's net worth is. In addition to student loans, there's the house payment. People tend to buy a house based on what they can be approved for, not based off of a budget number they developed before talking to a bank. A 300k salary will get you pre-approved for a a lot of house in the US. Docs and Lawyers also fall into the trap of buying practices, so that's another factor. The biggest factor you're missing in your assumption, though, is that personal finance problems are largely behavioral. There's a parallel with personal health. The difference is that people know more about how to lose weight and be healthy - and still don't do it - then people who actually know how to make good financial decisions. Even those who know they shouldn't buy things they can't afford, routinely do so for whatever reason they have been told or have invented. For what it's worth, the study by Ramsey Solutions says that the top 5 careers for becoming a millionaire are engineers, teachers, CPAs, attorneys, and management. While some of those are vague and capture a large range of professions, Docs are conspicuously missing.

triceratops 6y ago

Nit: It's "cue" as in "stage cue".