7 ms·

The quote in the title of the article is really an inappropriate way to try to describe inclusiveness. It’s not about being less, it’s about including others mo

The quote in the title of the article is really an inappropriate way to try to describe inclusiveness. It’s not about being less, it’s about including others more.

silicon2401 6y ago
For you maybe, do you speak for everyone else? There are definitely a lot of people who want to reduce whiteness, not just include others more. A concrete example is media capitalizing Black but not white in reference to people. There's also this statement that apparently you would agree with, yet many people got upset by: "It's Okay To Be White". There's even a wikipedia article on it. Inclusiveness is not the same thing to everyone
- Ancapistani 6y ago
  I’ve also noticed this, and find it ironic because I recall reading about how capitalizing “white” but not “black” was a dog whistle around the time triple parenthesis hit the public consciousness.
- philistine 6y ago
  I am not "ok to be white". This specific sentence is a dog whistle to show acceptance of white supremacy. I would instead say that the privilege associated with my whiteness is maddening, and must be decried. What I don't like is a corporation including training material telling its employees to "be less white". This is confrontational, and in my point of view could cause more harm to minority groups. When you can, it is better to focus on teaching someone to reinforce positive aspects than to teach them to stop negative behaviours. But as a general point of view of Western society in general, I do think it should be less white.
  - silicon2401 6y ago
    > But as a general point of view of Western society in general, I do think it should be less white. Exactly my point
gthtjtkt 6y ago
Don't try to justify racism. The slides literally told employees to "be less white".
- sokoloff 6y ago
  If that instruction was contextually intended to support non-white employees who felt like they had to "play white" in order to succeed, I think the advice is generally good ("be yourself"). If that was contextually directed primarily towards white employees, it's offensive and inherently racist. I didn't (and now can't) see the context, but context matters. "White before black" is offensive/racist in many contexts, but not in the rules of chess.
  - chroem- 6y ago
    Can you even imagine what the fallout would be if they started telling employees to "be less black"?
    - sn_master 6y ago
      Exactly. If the video was about inventory shrinkage and was titled "Be Less Black" they would have (rightfully so) been sued out of existence. Racists exists in every human group, and they're predominately non-white outside the West. e.g Groups like Boku Haram are anti-White racists in Africa.
      - Mediterraneo10 6y ago
        Can you cite that? Boko Haram is an Islamist movement, so I would expect them to recognize fellow Islamists anywhere of any race, and indeed Wikipedia notes they are allied with Islamic State in the Levant and Iraq. There are many Islamists who absolutely anyone would recognize as white, just look at some of the people from the Balkans or Chechnya who have gone to fight for ISIS. There have been recent movements in Nigeria that specifically opposed whites in general, but they have generally been from an Afrocentrism perspective and often were just as mistrustful of Islam as Christianity, arguing for a return to indigenous African spirituality instead.
jwond 6y ago
Maybe in theory. From my perspective the quote "'Be Less White' Learning Plan Was About Workplace Inclusion" seems fairly representative of what inclusiveness usually means in current practice.
- sn_master 6y ago
  The quote alone without context isn't all that bad, but the content of the slides in which it was, specifically this (https://twitter.com/DrKarlynB/status/1362774562769879044/photo/2 https://twitter.com/DrKarlynB/status/1362774562769879044/pho...) implies that "being white" carries all of those negative attributes, despite your skin color not being your choice when being born.
kaczordon 6y ago
It’s literally pulled from the training presentation. Would you have the same reaction if the presentation had said “Try to be less black”?
- barney54 6y ago
  Yes, because telling people to "be less black" is racist.
rtrdea 6y ago
Wrong. Read the slides
treeman79 6y ago
Insulting and demeaning racial groups is the opposite of inclusion. It breeds resentment and hatred. For a time there was a focus on treating people as human and not as [racial/sex/religion] Trend these days is to encourage openly being a bigot, just as long as it’s against certain people. Replace the word white with any other social group and perhaps you’ll see the problem.
- newmnhn 6y ago
  "White" isn't a racial group. "White" as an idea to describe a group of (roughly) light skinned European people, came about in order to justify enslaving and subjugating other groups. Various groups worked their way into being considered white over time, in part by contributing to the subjugation of others. And various groups once considered white, later were not considered so. "White" as what you call a "social group" was created in service of this power dynamic. Before, say, about 400 years ago, whiteness was not an idea used to identify a "race" of people. So yeah, I'm all for being less white. I'm fine with just being like ... Irish. You can research the history on this pretty easily, but a good place to start is a podcast series from Scene On Radio called Seeing White. My memory is a little fuzzy but I think the broad outline is correct.
  - treeman79 6y ago
    You sound like klu klux klan members on Jerry Springer show trying to justify their bigotry.
  - rayiner 6y ago
    > "White" isn't a racial group. I understand the academic underpinnings of that idea, but that's not how normal people understand the term "white." The Bureau of the Census, for example, certainly appears the believe that "white" reflects a racial category: https://www.census.gov/topics/population/race/about.html https://www.census.gov/topics/population/race/about.html.
    - germinalphrase 6y ago
      I was trained as a census taker back in the day. We were instructed that “race and ethnicity” was explicitly ‘self identified/defined’ not based on any physical, cultural, or geographical origin. If a respondent wanted to write “Minnesotan” or “dog” in that box we were to accept it at face value.
StanislavPetrov 6y ago
There is, unfortunately, a common disconnect between intent and reality among many in the "woke" community. It doesn't matter what you claim, "its about" - it matters what is actually done. If I believe your soul has been corrupted by the devil, and I burn you at the stake to cleans you of the evil influence, I may very well believe sincerely that I'm helping you. My intent could be 100% pure. When asked about it, with your burning corpse tied to the stake behind me, I could sincerely say that my actions were "about" helping you. Good intentions never excuse bad behavior.
- seneca 6y ago
  "Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." C. S. Lewis
- philistine 6y ago
  I do believe using the sentence "be less white" is exactly that: someone earnestly trying to help but enshrining a bad behaviour of describing people through their ethnicity.
someonehere 6y ago
So if I had kids and they were white and they pushed this on them in grade school, my kids should walk away feeling guilty for who they are? That’s some twisted logic sadly with how the US is treating this.
- philistine 6y ago
  They should feel guilty for pushing kids.
karaterobot 6y ago
I think your point with this comment was that inclusiveness is not about eliminating some groups, but about accepting more groups, with the overriding principle of tolerance and respect for differences. This is the definition of inclusiveness I was taught, more or less. If I'm right about that, I think most people are misreading your comment somehow. If I'm wrong about that, I'm the one misreading it!

The quote in the title of the article is really an inappropriate way to try to describe inclusiveness. It’s not about being less, it’s about including others more.

silicon2401 6y ago

For you maybe, do you speak for everyone else? There are definitely a lot of people who want to reduce whiteness, not just include others more. A concrete example is media capitalizing Black but not white in reference to people. There's also this statement that apparently you would agree with, yet many people got upset by: "It's Okay To Be White". There's even a wikipedia article on it. Inclusiveness is not the same thing to everyone

Ancapistani 6y ago
I’ve also noticed this, and find it ironic because I recall reading about how capitalizing “white” but not “black” was a dog whistle around the time triple parenthesis hit the public consciousness.
philistine 6y ago
I am not "ok to be white". This specific sentence is a dog whistle to show acceptance of white supremacy. I would instead say that the privilege associated with my whiteness is maddening, and must be decried. What I don't like is a corporation including training material telling its employees to "be less white". This is confrontational, and in my point of view could cause more harm to minority groups. When you can, it is better to focus on teaching someone to reinforce positive aspects than to teach them to stop negative behaviours. But as a general point of view of Western society in general, I do think it should be less white.
- silicon2401 6y ago
  > But as a general point of view of Western society in general, I do think it should be less white. Exactly my point

gthtjtkt 6y ago

Don't try to justify racism. The slides literally told employees to "be less white".

sokoloff 6y ago
If that instruction was contextually intended to support non-white employees who felt like they had to "play white" in order to succeed, I think the advice is generally good ("be yourself"). If that was contextually directed primarily towards white employees, it's offensive and inherently racist. I didn't (and now can't) see the context, but context matters. "White before black" is offensive/racist in many contexts, but not in the rules of chess.
- chroem- 6y ago
  Can you even imagine what the fallout would be if they started telling employees to "be less black"?
  - sn_master 6y ago
    Exactly. If the video was about inventory shrinkage and was titled "Be Less Black" they would have (rightfully so) been sued out of existence. Racists exists in every human group, and they're predominately non-white outside the West. e.g Groups like Boku Haram are anti-White racists in Africa.
    - Mediterraneo10 6y ago
      Can you cite that? Boko Haram is an Islamist movement, so I would expect them to recognize fellow Islamists anywhere of any race, and indeed Wikipedia notes they are allied with Islamic State in the Levant and Iraq. There are many Islamists who absolutely anyone would recognize as white, just look at some of the people from the Balkans or Chechnya who have gone to fight for ISIS. There have been recent movements in Nigeria that specifically opposed whites in general, but they have generally been from an Afrocentrism perspective and often were just as mistrustful of Islam as Christianity, arguing for a return to indigenous African spirituality instead.

jwond 6y ago

Maybe in theory. From my perspective the quote "'Be Less White' Learning Plan Was About Workplace Inclusion" seems fairly representative of what inclusiveness usually means in current practice.

sn_master 6y ago
The quote alone without context isn't all that bad, but the content of the slides in which it was, specifically this (https://twitter.com/DrKarlynB/status/1362774562769879044/photo/2 https://twitter.com/DrKarlynB/status/1362774562769879044/pho...) implies that "being white" carries all of those negative attributes, despite your skin color not being your choice when being born.

kaczordon 6y ago

It’s literally pulled from the training presentation. Would you have the same reaction if the presentation had said “Try to be less black”?

barney54 6y ago
Yes, because telling people to "be less black" is racist.

rtrdea 6y ago

Wrong. Read the slides

treeman79 6y ago

Insulting and demeaning racial groups is the opposite of inclusion. It breeds resentment and hatred. For a time there was a focus on treating people as human and not as [racial/sex/religion] Trend these days is to encourage openly being a bigot, just as long as it’s against certain people. Replace the word white with any other social group and perhaps you’ll see the problem.

newmnhn 6y ago
"White" isn't a racial group. "White" as an idea to describe a group of (roughly) light skinned European people, came about in order to justify enslaving and subjugating other groups. Various groups worked their way into being considered white over time, in part by contributing to the subjugation of others. And various groups once considered white, later were not considered so. "White" as what you call a "social group" was created in service of this power dynamic. Before, say, about 400 years ago, whiteness was not an idea used to identify a "race" of people. So yeah, I'm all for being less white. I'm fine with just being like ... Irish. You can research the history on this pretty easily, but a good place to start is a podcast series from Scene On Radio called Seeing White. My memory is a little fuzzy but I think the broad outline is correct.
- treeman79 6y ago
  You sound like klu klux klan members on Jerry Springer show trying to justify their bigotry.
- rayiner 6y ago
  > "White" isn't a racial group. I understand the academic underpinnings of that idea, but that's not how normal people understand the term "white." The Bureau of the Census, for example, certainly appears the believe that "white" reflects a racial category: https://www.census.gov/topics/population/race/about.html https://www.census.gov/topics/population/race/about.html.
  - germinalphrase 6y ago
    I was trained as a census taker back in the day. We were instructed that “race and ethnicity” was explicitly ‘self identified/defined’ not based on any physical, cultural, or geographical origin. If a respondent wanted to write “Minnesotan” or “dog” in that box we were to accept it at face value.

StanislavPetrov 6y ago

There is, unfortunately, a common disconnect between intent and reality among many in the "woke" community. It doesn't matter what you claim, "its about" - it matters what is actually done. If I believe your soul has been corrupted by the devil, and I burn you at the stake to cleans you of the evil influence, I may very well believe sincerely that I'm helping you. My intent could be 100% pure. When asked about it, with your burning corpse tied to the stake behind me, I could sincerely say that my actions were "about" helping you. Good intentions never excuse bad behavior.

seneca 6y ago
"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." C. S. Lewis
philistine 6y ago
I do believe using the sentence "be less white" is exactly that: someone earnestly trying to help but enshrining a bad behaviour of describing people through their ethnicity.

someonehere 6y ago

So if I had kids and they were white and they pushed this on them in grade school, my kids should walk away feeling guilty for who they are? That’s some twisted logic sadly with how the US is treating this.

philistine 6y ago
They should feel guilty for pushing kids.

karaterobot 6y ago

I think your point with this comment was that inclusiveness is not about eliminating some groups, but about accepting more groups, with the overriding principle of tolerance and respect for differences. This is the definition of inclusiveness I was taught, more or less. If I'm right about that, I think most people are misreading your comment somehow. If I'm wrong about that, I'm the one misreading it!