6 ms·

I'm in the U.S. I personally know a non-trivial number of women who have gone through absolutely intense (real, diagnosed) anxiety and depression because of ha

I'm in the U.S. I personally know a non-trivial number of women who have gone through absolutely intense (real, diagnosed) anxiety and depression because of having to feed formula to their child instead of breast milk. If you ever get to peek into these "mommy groups" on social media or in person, you can see how much shaming goes on in there. And the breast milk one is one of the biggest issues people get shamed for. Sometimes it's passive aggressive and indirect, and sometimes it's quite direct. They trot out headlines from questionable studies from totally different living environments in the world that indicate some 3 IQ point increase in kids that were breastfed and then they act like it's proof that formula feeding is child abuse. The guilt and shame people feel over these things is very harmful. I have some advice I'd like to spread and share. It applies to myself as well and I've been trying very hard to practice it. It is this: If you are not a scientist who has actually conducted one of these studies; if you are not intimately familiar with the methodologies and the math techniques used in the analysis; if you've only ever read the headline and maybe an abstract of a study- then please don't give advice to anyone on the topic. Please don't spread "information" that X is better than Y.

rtx 6y ago
Forcing formula is not abuse but neglect, unless done due to medical conditions. Don't fight evolution, formula is harder to digest. Why are you peddling pseudo science over here.
- Monroe13 6y ago
  This is exactly the attitude the above poster is complaining against. Breast feeding is probably better than formula in a few small ways, but treating formula use as “neglect” creates a harmful burden on new - and already stressed - mothers. If breast feeding is difficult, feed your child formula. They will turn out just fine.
  - rtx 6y ago
    Facts are not attitude. I am not talking to mothers, as not my business. However peddling pseudo science should be opposed.
    - Monroe13 6y ago
      I agree. The claim the formula feeding is neglect is not supported by the science. So please don’t spread that pseudoscience opinion.
      - rtx 6y ago
        Formula feeding is associated with adverse health outcomes for both mothers and infants, ranging from infectious morbidity to chronic disease. Given the compelling evidence for differences in health outcomes, breastfeeding should be acknowledged as the biologic norm for infant feeding. Physician counseling, office, and hospital practices should be aligned to ensure that the breastfeeding mother-infant dyad has the best chance for a long, successful breastfeeding experience. Source - https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2812877/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2812877/
aiilns 6y ago
Well good advice in general, even though the way you phrase your comment makes it look like you think breast feeding is no better than the formulas. I am a medical student and we have been told at uni from professors (paediatricians) that breast feeding _is_ better than formulas I think with regards to asthma or some other allergic stuff. There are reasons that mothers should not or cannot breastfeed and it's not the end of the world, but in general I believe they should. And really the weight of proof rests on the baby formulas to prove that they're OK. Even common sense suggests breast feeding is better, it's been the way people have been growing up for millenia all around the world.
- suchire 6y ago
  “It’s been the way people have been growing up for millennia all around the world.” I don’t think this is a very convincing argument. There are many, many things that have been around for millennia that just aren’t that great. We’ve been living without vaccines, antibiotics, antiseptics, antihelminthics, poor nutrition, extremely high rates of childhood mortality, and high rates of death by childbirth for millennia. That doesn’t mean that state of being or way of doing things is inherently good
  - nemothekid 6y ago
    No, but the onus is on the new thing to prove to it is undeniably better. Before we had antibiotics there was a mountain of dubious products that could cure all manner of illnesses that did nothing. Secondly, I’m also dubious of the claims of formula feeding as it hasn’t been conclusively shown to be better, but yet Nestle has spent millions in marketing getting much of third world hooked on formula to their own detriment.
- bhandziuk 6y ago
  I think they're saying that if you don't breast feed (and it's not always a choice, some women's milk doesn't come in, some babies have a really hard time latching, sometimes they take so long to latch that even if milk would have been there it no longer is...etc) - if you don't breast feed that mother's should not feel guilt or feel like failed parents.
asdfasgasdgasdg 6y ago
> If you are not a scientist who has actually conducted one of these studies; if you are not intimately familiar with the methodologies and the math techniques used in the analysis; if you've only ever read the headline and maybe an abstract of a study- then please don't give advice to anyone on the topic. Please don't spread "information" that X is better than Y. I'd say this advice doesn't really go far enough. I'm not a scientist but I have read a number of these studies and the biggest takeaway is that in many cases effect sizes are really low and it's hard to say whether these effects are real or the result of some hidden uncontrolled variable. This applies, at a minimum, to breastfeeding v. formula, and also to alcohol consumption during pregnancy. Back to sleep has real and significant effects. Screen time's harm is severely overhyped given the quality of the evidence we have available, but too much sugar is definitely bad for you. My advice to new parents is basically that in most cases we don't have good evidence for one thing being much better than another. As far as food, baby should have formula or breast milk, but which one doesn't matter all that much. As far as sleeping, the sleep area should be firm and free of blankets, but as far as I'm concerned the evidence about where baby should sleep is minimal. I'm not aware of any strong evidence that sleep training has an effect other than teaching the baby to sleep. One other commonality I see in a lot of this stuff is there is zero consideration for the costs that the various treatments impose on parents, and particularly on the mother. If breastfeeding gives junior a 0.5% increase in IQ, is that worth a year of suffering and untold hours spent feeding? That's a value judgment, for sure, but it seems to be left out of the equation entirely when people are giving advice to mothers.
- Grustaf 6y ago
  > is that worth a year of suffering and untold hours spent feeding Suffering? Sure NOT breastfeeding is very inconvenient, not least at night. And few things are more intimate and loving than the act of breastfeeding. Robbing the child or mother of that is horrible.
  - asdfasgasdgasdg 6y ago
    Have you breastfed before? I'm married to someone who has, and suffering is an apt description of the experience, for at least a large fraction of the time. Moderate discomfort for the rest. The days when we started weening the kids are, by my wife's report, some of the best days she's ever had, because of how bad the days before were. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6400324/#:~:text=Background%3A,manage%20breast%20and%20nipple%20pain https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6400324/#:~:tex.... "Over 90% of women experience pain during breastfeeding initiation and lack strategies to self-manage breast and nipple pain."
Grustaf 6y ago
> They trot out headlines from questionable studies from totally different living environments in the world that indicate some 3 IQ point increase in kids that were breastfed and then they act like it's proof that formula feeding is child abuse. Breastfeeding, apart from being cheap, convenient and natural, has been shown to have numerous benefits, not just to intelligence but overall health, even for the mother. There is such an abundance of evidence for this that it's just silly to even question, but you can always research it for yourself. Regarding women feeling anxious. Since refraining from breastfeeding is a significant risk factor, similar to not properly medicating, I think it's reasonable to view it in the same light. I.e. if you refrain from breastfeeding without a very good reason, you are increasing health risks for your child. Some interesting statistics can be found here for example. Formula-fed children have about twice the risk of vomiting or diarrhea during their first year. Breastfeeding is about as efficient as antibiotics in preventing ear infections. Etc. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2998971/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2998971/ General references: https://www.who.int/health-topics/breastfeeding#tab=tab_1 https://www.who.int/health-topics/breastfeeding#tab=tab_1 https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736(15)01024-7/fulltext https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6...
- asdfasgasdgasdg 6y ago
  https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4781366/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4781366/ Almost every study on breastfeeding will have a disclaimer like the one in this meta-analysis (or ought to if it doesn't). "Because almost all the data in this review were gathered from observational studies, one should not infer causality based on these findings. Also, there is a wide range of quality of the body of evidence across different health outcomes." I don't understand why the issue of breastfeeding in particular seems to cause people to entirely forget that correlation usually doesn't indicate causation. https://www.gwern.net/Causality https://www.gwern.net/Causality
  - petertodd 6y ago
    Also "Formula-fed children have about twice the risk of vomiting or diarrhea during their first year." Yes, that's bad. But it's not that bad. Try your best at breastfeeding, and if it doesn't work out, so be it. Better to focus your energy in being a good parent in other ways that you can excel at than dwelling on what isn't working for you.
aidenn0 6y ago
As someone who has fostered and adopted children with trauma backgrounds (including abuse and neglect), it's doubly frustrating to see parents equating things like sleep training and formula feeding with abuse and neglect. When you have a kid that was intentionally burned as a toddler by a grandmother as punishment for crying, and another that was left strapped to a car seat with a box of cereal so his mother could go on a meth-binge, it's frustrating to see upper-middle-class mother's calling each other abusive or neglectful for allowing increased screen time during quarantine.
bhandziuk 6y ago
When my wife and I went to pre-baby classes they'd often use the phrase "Fed is best" and I thought it was strange because it sounded like something that could have rhymed and was a missed opportunity. Then I was informed that the phrase used to be "Breast is best" but, like you're saying, women who could not breast feed for whatever reason were subjected to this level of guilt and ridicule so much so that now they've dropped that phrase. They'd say like "Sure, breast feed if you can but if you can't that is totally a-ok too. Get some formula, get some skin to skin time. Your baby will be fine". I liked how much effort the classes were putting in to not pressure people to breast feed when it wasn't always an option. There's no need to feel, as a parent, that you've failed your child if you're not breast feeding.
- ragnese 6y ago
  That is very positive and reassuring to hear. When my then-wife and I had our son, it was still very strong "breast is best" messaging. It really has made a lot of parents feel awful amounts of guilt and shame. Personally, until we have very strong evidence that breast milk is significantly better for the baby, I think the messaging shouldn't even be "breast feed if you can"- it should be "breast feed if you want". Some women have a terrible experience breast feeding even though the technically "can" produce the milk. It can be physically quite uncomfortable, it keeps dad from being able to bond as well, the baby might not be good at "latching", etc.
  - aaron695 6y ago
    > If you are not a scientist who has actually conducted one of these studies; if you are not intimately familiar with the methodologies and the math techniques used in the analysis; if you've only ever read the headline and maybe an abstract of a study- then please don't give advice to anyone on the topic. Please don't spread "information" that X is better than Y. Do you have a good article backing this - > I think the messaging shouldn't even be "breast feed if you can"- it should be "breast feed if you want". Preferably a solid journal article, or an analytical news article. The top ones on Google are just emotive. Nutrition from womb to 2 years is vital, it's probably the most important deal-able issue in the world today. I'll assume that advice is only for HN users who have clean water and access to good baby formula and the IQ's and education to do it properly. I don't see why formula is not as good as, if not better than breast. But evidence is breast is best as far as I can see.
tabtab 6y ago
Breast feeding can be difficult for many reasons. In traditional societies people with experience would take the time to coach a new mother. Sometimes a baby is slow to get the hang of it and will actually lose weight for a while before figuring it out. Allowing your newborn child to lose weight goes against mothering instincts, and without a supporting coach is really hard to accept. And if you "cheat" via bottle, the child will get spoiled and only take the bottle. Breast infections and soreness are also common. Coaching helps here also. A compromise is to purchase human breast milk, perhaps mix it 50/50 with formula if your budget is tight. Still, you are often viewed as a failure for doing such.
- ragnese 6y ago
  The idea that it's somehow better to have your newborn baby be denied nutrition for their first days of life is a very dangerous one in my opinion. There have been several cases in the U.S., even in recent years, of children becoming very sick and/or permanently disabled because of mothers waiting too long to give up on breast feeding. And, honestly, infant mortality is a real thing. People talk about breast feeding at all costs because that's what humans did before formula and "it worked out just fine". It only worked out just fine for the children that survived...
  - tabtab 6y ago
    There's a right balance, and expert coaches know what that balancing point is. Another thing I forgot to mention is that in "ancient" societies, other mothers with experience would often help feed a new baby themselves until the new mother got up to speed.

rtx 6y ago

Forcing formula is not abuse but neglect, unless done due to medical conditions. Don't fight evolution, formula is harder to digest. Why are you peddling pseudo science over here.

Monroe13 6y ago
This is exactly the attitude the above poster is complaining against. Breast feeding is probably better than formula in a few small ways, but treating formula use as “neglect” creates a harmful burden on new - and already stressed - mothers. If breast feeding is difficult, feed your child formula. They will turn out just fine.
- rtx 6y ago
  Facts are not attitude. I am not talking to mothers, as not my business. However peddling pseudo science should be opposed.
  - Monroe13 6y ago
    I agree. The claim the formula feeding is neglect is not supported by the science. So please don’t spread that pseudoscience opinion.
    - rtx 6y ago
      Formula feeding is associated with adverse health outcomes for both mothers and infants, ranging from infectious morbidity to chronic disease. Given the compelling evidence for differences in health outcomes, breastfeeding should be acknowledged as the biologic norm for infant feeding. Physician counseling, office, and hospital practices should be aligned to ensure that the breastfeeding mother-infant dyad has the best chance for a long, successful breastfeeding experience. Source - https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2812877/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2812877/

aiilns 6y ago

Well good advice in general, even though the way you phrase your comment makes it look like you think breast feeding is no better than the formulas. I am a medical student and we have been told at uni from professors (paediatricians) that breast feeding _is_ better than formulas I think with regards to asthma or some other allergic stuff. There are reasons that mothers should not or cannot breastfeed and it's not the end of the world, but in general I believe they should. And really the weight of proof rests on the baby formulas to prove that they're OK. Even common sense suggests breast feeding is better, it's been the way people have been growing up for millenia all around the world.

suchire 6y ago
“It’s been the way people have been growing up for millennia all around the world.” I don’t think this is a very convincing argument. There are many, many things that have been around for millennia that just aren’t that great. We’ve been living without vaccines, antibiotics, antiseptics, antihelminthics, poor nutrition, extremely high rates of childhood mortality, and high rates of death by childbirth for millennia. That doesn’t mean that state of being or way of doing things is inherently good
- nemothekid 6y ago
  No, but the onus is on the new thing to prove to it is undeniably better. Before we had antibiotics there was a mountain of dubious products that could cure all manner of illnesses that did nothing. Secondly, I’m also dubious of the claims of formula feeding as it hasn’t been conclusively shown to be better, but yet Nestle has spent millions in marketing getting much of third world hooked on formula to their own detriment.
bhandziuk 6y ago
I think they're saying that if you don't breast feed (and it's not always a choice, some women's milk doesn't come in, some babies have a really hard time latching, sometimes they take so long to latch that even if milk would have been there it no longer is...etc) - if you don't breast feed that mother's should not feel guilt or feel like failed parents.

asdfasgasdgasdg 6y ago

> If you are not a scientist who has actually conducted one of these studies; if you are not intimately familiar with the methodologies and the math techniques used in the analysis; if you've only ever read the headline and maybe an abstract of a study- then please don't give advice to anyone on the topic. Please don't spread "information" that X is better than Y. I'd say this advice doesn't really go far enough. I'm not a scientist but I have read a number of these studies and the biggest takeaway is that in many cases effect sizes are really low and it's hard to say whether these effects are real or the result of some hidden uncontrolled variable. This applies, at a minimum, to breastfeeding v. formula, and also to alcohol consumption during pregnancy. Back to sleep has real and significant effects. Screen time's harm is severely overhyped given the quality of the evidence we have available, but too much sugar is definitely bad for you. My advice to new parents is basically that in most cases we don't have good evidence for one thing being much better than another. As far as food, baby should have formula or breast milk, but which one doesn't matter all that much. As far as sleeping, the sleep area should be firm and free of blankets, but as far as I'm concerned the evidence about where baby should sleep is minimal. I'm not aware of any strong evidence that sleep training has an effect other than teaching the baby to sleep. One other commonality I see in a lot of this stuff is there is zero consideration for the costs that the various treatments impose on parents, and particularly on the mother. If breastfeeding gives junior a 0.5% increase in IQ, is that worth a year of suffering and untold hours spent feeding? That's a value judgment, for sure, but it seems to be left out of the equation entirely when people are giving advice to mothers.

Grustaf 6y ago
> is that worth a year of suffering and untold hours spent feeding Suffering? Sure NOT breastfeeding is very inconvenient, not least at night. And few things are more intimate and loving than the act of breastfeeding. Robbing the child or mother of that is horrible.
- asdfasgasdgasdg 6y ago
  Have you breastfed before? I'm married to someone who has, and suffering is an apt description of the experience, for at least a large fraction of the time. Moderate discomfort for the rest. The days when we started weening the kids are, by my wife's report, some of the best days she's ever had, because of how bad the days before were. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6400324/#:~:text=Background%3A,manage%20breast%20and%20nipple%20pain https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6400324/#:~:tex.... "Over 90% of women experience pain during breastfeeding initiation and lack strategies to self-manage breast and nipple pain."

Grustaf 6y ago

> They trot out headlines from questionable studies from totally different living environments in the world that indicate some 3 IQ point increase in kids that were breastfed and then they act like it's proof that formula feeding is child abuse. Breastfeeding, apart from being cheap, convenient and natural, has been shown to have numerous benefits, not just to intelligence but overall health, even for the mother. There is such an abundance of evidence for this that it's just silly to even question, but you can always research it for yourself. Regarding women feeling anxious. Since refraining from breastfeeding is a significant risk factor, similar to not properly medicating, I think it's reasonable to view it in the same light. I.e. if you refrain from breastfeeding without a very good reason, you are increasing health risks for your child. Some interesting statistics can be found here for example. Formula-fed children have about twice the risk of vomiting or diarrhea during their first year. Breastfeeding is about as efficient as antibiotics in preventing ear infections. Etc. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2998971/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2998971/ General references: https://www.who.int/health-topics/breastfeeding#tab=tab_1 https://www.who.int/health-topics/breastfeeding#tab=tab_1 https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736(15)01024-7/fulltext https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6...

asdfasgasdgasdg 6y ago
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4781366/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4781366/ Almost every study on breastfeeding will have a disclaimer like the one in this meta-analysis (or ought to if it doesn't). "Because almost all the data in this review were gathered from observational studies, one should not infer causality based on these findings. Also, there is a wide range of quality of the body of evidence across different health outcomes." I don't understand why the issue of breastfeeding in particular seems to cause people to entirely forget that correlation usually doesn't indicate causation. https://www.gwern.net/Causality https://www.gwern.net/Causality
- petertodd 6y ago
  Also "Formula-fed children have about twice the risk of vomiting or diarrhea during their first year." Yes, that's bad. But it's not that bad. Try your best at breastfeeding, and if it doesn't work out, so be it. Better to focus your energy in being a good parent in other ways that you can excel at than dwelling on what isn't working for you.

aidenn0 6y ago

As someone who has fostered and adopted children with trauma backgrounds (including abuse and neglect), it's doubly frustrating to see parents equating things like sleep training and formula feeding with abuse and neglect. When you have a kid that was intentionally burned as a toddler by a grandmother as punishment for crying, and another that was left strapped to a car seat with a box of cereal so his mother could go on a meth-binge, it's frustrating to see upper-middle-class mother's calling each other abusive or neglectful for allowing increased screen time during quarantine.

bhandziuk 6y ago

When my wife and I went to pre-baby classes they'd often use the phrase "Fed is best" and I thought it was strange because it sounded like something that could have rhymed and was a missed opportunity. Then I was informed that the phrase used to be "Breast is best" but, like you're saying, women who could not breast feed for whatever reason were subjected to this level of guilt and ridicule so much so that now they've dropped that phrase. They'd say like "Sure, breast feed if you can but if you can't that is totally a-ok too. Get some formula, get some skin to skin time. Your baby will be fine". I liked how much effort the classes were putting in to not pressure people to breast feed when it wasn't always an option. There's no need to feel, as a parent, that you've failed your child if you're not breast feeding.

ragnese 6y ago
That is very positive and reassuring to hear. When my then-wife and I had our son, it was still very strong "breast is best" messaging. It really has made a lot of parents feel awful amounts of guilt and shame. Personally, until we have very strong evidence that breast milk is significantly better for the baby, I think the messaging shouldn't even be "breast feed if you can"- it should be "breast feed if you want". Some women have a terrible experience breast feeding even though the technically "can" produce the milk. It can be physically quite uncomfortable, it keeps dad from being able to bond as well, the baby might not be good at "latching", etc.
- aaron695 6y ago
  > If you are not a scientist who has actually conducted one of these studies; if you are not intimately familiar with the methodologies and the math techniques used in the analysis; if you've only ever read the headline and maybe an abstract of a study- then please don't give advice to anyone on the topic. Please don't spread "information" that X is better than Y. Do you have a good article backing this - > I think the messaging shouldn't even be "breast feed if you can"- it should be "breast feed if you want". Preferably a solid journal article, or an analytical news article. The top ones on Google are just emotive. Nutrition from womb to 2 years is vital, it's probably the most important deal-able issue in the world today. I'll assume that advice is only for HN users who have clean water and access to good baby formula and the IQ's and education to do it properly. I don't see why formula is not as good as, if not better than breast. But evidence is breast is best as far as I can see.

tabtab 6y ago

Breast feeding can be difficult for many reasons. In traditional societies people with experience would take the time to coach a new mother. Sometimes a baby is slow to get the hang of it and will actually lose weight for a while before figuring it out. Allowing your newborn child to lose weight goes against mothering instincts, and without a supporting coach is really hard to accept. And if you "cheat" via bottle, the child will get spoiled and only take the bottle. Breast infections and soreness are also common. Coaching helps here also. A compromise is to purchase human breast milk, perhaps mix it 50/50 with formula if your budget is tight. Still, you are often viewed as a failure for doing such.

ragnese 6y ago
The idea that it's somehow better to have your newborn baby be denied nutrition for their first days of life is a very dangerous one in my opinion. There have been several cases in the U.S., even in recent years, of children becoming very sick and/or permanently disabled because of mothers waiting too long to give up on breast feeding. And, honestly, infant mortality is a real thing. People talk about breast feeding at all costs because that's what humans did before formula and "it worked out just fine". It only worked out just fine for the children that survived...
- tabtab 6y ago
  There's a right balance, and expert coaches know what that balancing point is. Another thing I forgot to mention is that in "ancient" societies, other mothers with experience would often help feed a new baby themselves until the new mother got up to speed.