4 ms·

I find it weird how little we know about our own martial arts. For example the last official US Army sword manual was published in 1913 and was written by Geor

I find it weird how little we know about our own martial arts. For example the last official US Army sword manual was published in 1913 and was written by George S. Patton. He even designed the sword to be used with the manual.

sillyquiet 6y ago
Something like a sword fighting technique that needs to be trained often, starting early in life, would not take much to die out - probably less than a generation of disuse. And its funny you mention Patton's manual, WWI was probably the last time a sword was considered a practical fighting weapon except in rare circumstances. Even the bayonet started a gradual decline then.
- jaegerpicker 6y ago
  Interestingly enough, melee weapons are still often used in modern warfare. While not swords but machete's, axes/tomahawks, and a large variety of knifes are still used. I mean your are 100% correct they aren't the main weapon of nearly anyone, they are still super effective in close quarters. In fact within 21 feet or so they are typically considered MORE effective than firearms unless you already have the weapon drawn, aimed, and ready to fire.
stryan 6y ago
Eastern martial arts were often tied to religious/philosophical practices. For example, many Chinese martial arts are from an evolution of Taoist "physical alchemy" and massage practices. It's a lot easier to forget a martial art when it's no longer useful in war and has nothing else going for it.
- baxuz 6y ago
  A lot of early German books included alchemy: https://wiktenauer.com/wiki/Pol_Hausbuch_(MS_3227a)/11r_-_12r https://wiktenauer.com/wiki/Pol_Hausbuch_(MS_3227a)/11r_-_12...
  - stryan 6y ago
    Interesting! I'll have to look more into that. Chinese internal alchemy is a bit different though; it's more like the martial art is the alchemical process itself, with the practitioners body being the reagent/substance. This looks more like alchemy being used in creating weapons.
madhadron 6y ago
It's because the weaponry used changed. A modern US infantryman is the inheritor of a continuous development in western martial arts. The weaponry and context changed and so did the skills. Bayonets are still taught as part of combatives as far as I know, but the days of fire a volley followed by a bayonet charge are long gone. A soldier I know told me that knives and pistols are tools you use to steal a rifle from someone.
- aksss 6y ago
  > pistols are tools...to steal a rifle I believe that is often credited to Col. Jeff Cooper, or at least for popularizing it.
  - hutzlibu 6y ago
    Still, in close quarters I rather have a pistol than a rifle.
    - User23 6y ago
      I agree, but that's because in my use case I really want a very bright flashlight with a strobe feature in my off hand. There are definitely use cases where an under 6 pound short barrel rifle is going to be more effective than a pistol in close quarters though.
- josefx 6y ago
  WWII had trench warfare, sharpened entrenching tools beat anything too long to effectively wield in a trench.
  - madhadron 6y ago
    Yes, and the entrenching tool is still in the hand to hand manuals.
mkehrt 6y ago
But arts that were sports remained, the same as in East Asia. We still have boxing, wrestling, fencing and others.
- hermitcrab 6y ago
  Sports like olympic fencing are very far removed from their martial origins.
  - mkehrt 6y ago
    But that's the same with, say, kendo!
    - hermitcrab 6y ago
      Kendo is quite stylized, but it does at least look like a fight of sorts. Olympic fencing looks more like a game of tag to my eyes. Some people think that getting into the Olympics is the worst thing that ever happened to Judo. I am inclined to agree with them.

sillyquiet 6y ago

Something like a sword fighting technique that needs to be trained often, starting early in life, would not take much to die out - probably less than a generation of disuse. And its funny you mention Patton's manual, WWI was probably the last time a sword was considered a practical fighting weapon except in rare circumstances. Even the bayonet started a gradual decline then.

jaegerpicker 6y ago
Interestingly enough, melee weapons are still often used in modern warfare. While not swords but machete's, axes/tomahawks, and a large variety of knifes are still used. I mean your are 100% correct they aren't the main weapon of nearly anyone, they are still super effective in close quarters. In fact within 21 feet or so they are typically considered MORE effective than firearms unless you already have the weapon drawn, aimed, and ready to fire.

stryan 6y ago

Eastern martial arts were often tied to religious/philosophical practices. For example, many Chinese martial arts are from an evolution of Taoist "physical alchemy" and massage practices. It's a lot easier to forget a martial art when it's no longer useful in war and has nothing else going for it.

baxuz 6y ago
A lot of early German books included alchemy: https://wiktenauer.com/wiki/Pol_Hausbuch_(MS_3227a)/11r_-_12r https://wiktenauer.com/wiki/Pol_Hausbuch_(MS_3227a)/11r_-_12...
- stryan 6y ago
  Interesting! I'll have to look more into that. Chinese internal alchemy is a bit different though; it's more like the martial art is the alchemical process itself, with the practitioners body being the reagent/substance. This looks more like alchemy being used in creating weapons.

madhadron 6y ago

It's because the weaponry used changed. A modern US infantryman is the inheritor of a continuous development in western martial arts. The weaponry and context changed and so did the skills. Bayonets are still taught as part of combatives as far as I know, but the days of fire a volley followed by a bayonet charge are long gone. A soldier I know told me that knives and pistols are tools you use to steal a rifle from someone.

aksss 6y ago
> pistols are tools...to steal a rifle I believe that is often credited to Col. Jeff Cooper, or at least for popularizing it.
- hutzlibu 6y ago
  Still, in close quarters I rather have a pistol than a rifle.
  - User23 6y ago
    I agree, but that's because in my use case I really want a very bright flashlight with a strobe feature in my off hand. There are definitely use cases where an under 6 pound short barrel rifle is going to be more effective than a pistol in close quarters though.
josefx 6y ago
WWII had trench warfare, sharpened entrenching tools beat anything too long to effectively wield in a trench.
- madhadron 6y ago
  Yes, and the entrenching tool is still in the hand to hand manuals.

mkehrt 6y ago

But arts that were sports remained, the same as in East Asia. We still have boxing, wrestling, fencing and others.

hermitcrab 6y ago
Sports like olympic fencing are very far removed from their martial origins.
- mkehrt 6y ago
  But that's the same with, say, kendo!
  - hermitcrab 6y ago
    Kendo is quite stylized, but it does at least look like a fight of sorts. Olympic fencing looks more like a game of tag to my eyes. Some people think that getting into the Olympics is the worst thing that ever happened to Judo. I am inclined to agree with them.