3 ms·

> UK society has decided that girls are not destined for IT and that needs to fucking stop. That actually sounds universal. I think a big part of choosing a c

> UK society has decided that girls are not destined for IT and that needs to fucking stop. That actually sounds universal. I think a big part of choosing a career/education track is having role models. If there are no women now in tech, then girls will not be inspired. Imagine how many boys are inspired by Elon Musk to work on cars and rockets. Quotas are not the end game. It can be seen as a necessary hack to kick start the process.

globular-toast 6y ago
Nope. Girls have their role models. We've been pedalling the exaggerated truth of Ada Lovelace being the first programmer for decades. She even has a programming language named after her. Grace Hopper is pulled out at any opportunity. Boys don't need role models. They don't do things "because Elon Musk is cool". You speak about things you really don't understand. Boys do things because they are driven to do them for seemingly no reason at all. Boys obsess over things. Taking things to sometimes absurd extremes. And they're not doing any of it because they want to be rich, or want women, or want to be Elon Musk. Trust me. I've spent all my evenings of the last month on my latest electronics project. Do you think I'm doing that just because Charles Babbage also had a penis?
- dennis_jeeves 6y ago
  >Do you think I'm doing that just because Charles Babbage also had a penis? Lol. Well what I've noticed is that it is women who obsess over their gender, men far less so. Freud got it right I think - penis envy is real!
- dragonwriter 6y ago
  > Boys don't need role models. Boys are surrounded by role models in lots of areas in a way girls are not (and that was even more true a couple generations back.) They don't need any special effort to provide them because their social context is suffused with them, both real and fictional. > Boys do things because they are driven to do them for seemingly no reason at all. No, if you pay much attention to boys, there's plenty of direct inspiration from specific role models and images from their social context.
- KaiserPro 6y ago
  Boys do as they are taught. its not role models, its expectations. I as a man am not expected to become a carer. I am not expected to be a nurse. I am not expected to show emotion. I am expected to fight, talk through grunting and like sports. Girls are taught to be girls, they must be nice, they must smile, they must care, they must be demure. Now, this is automatic. You treat others how you see others being treated, unless you have reason to change your behavior. > I've spent all my evenings of the last month on my latest electronics project. Do you think I'm doing that just because Charles Babbage also had a penis? nope. but, try this: obsess over caring for orphans, injured animals, restoring habitats, etc etc. Kinda naff right? Its equally as hard as electronics, requires the same level of science. But its not done by boys because its "what girls do"
  - castlecrasher2 6y ago
    This comment is strange to me, since the women I've seen that do the best work, particularly my CS high school teacher, were as hard-nosed as any man in the field; e.g., they knew their stuff and didn't let anyone else tell them otherwise. I don't think that sort of attitude comes from anywhere but the family unit. All this talk of orgs needing to cater to otherwise non-applicants and governments needing to intervene is just barking up the wrong tree.
    - KaiserPro 6y ago
      I have explicitly argued against hard intervention by government. I am not asking for state mandated _anything_ I am arguing for a societal change. For example I'm asking for adults to stop telling my daughter that her mum isn't a doctor, that I am. I want them to stop telling off my daughter when she says that I am the one that combs/washes/plaits her hair. I want them to stop yanking soft toys from my son saying "only girls play with soft toys" > All this talk of orgs needing to cater to otherwise non-applicants Nothing I have suggested is this.
  - globular-toast 6y ago
    > I as a man am not expected to become a carer. I am not expected to be a nurse. I am not expected to show emotion. I am expected to fight, talk through grunting and like sports. Guess what, I wasn't "expected" to become a programmer either. I was outcast and bullied in school for being a geek and a boffin. I still did it, though, because I don't give a toss what you or anyone else says I should do. I don't fight, nor do I like sports. As for girls being taught to be nice etc., are you suggesting we teach them to be not nice? Or maybe you think they are all naturally unpleasant but they've been taught to have a nice façade? Personally I think girls who are nice are nice because they are nice. But that's just me. Who says caring for orphans or injured animals is naff? You? Certainly not me. I honestly don't know a single person who thinks that. You vastly overestimate the importance of nurture in all of this. Think about it: even if we assume boys and girls are treated differently, why is it that some boys grow up to be programmers while others grow up to wipe shit off toilets? They had exactly the same education. Exactly the same opportunities. Why would did one choose to earn a pittance wiping shit over earning loads sitting at a desk?

globular-toast 6y ago

Nope. Girls have their role models. We've been pedalling the exaggerated truth of Ada Lovelace being the first programmer for decades. She even has a programming language named after her. Grace Hopper is pulled out at any opportunity. Boys don't need role models. They don't do things "because Elon Musk is cool". You speak about things you really don't understand. Boys do things because they are driven to do them for seemingly no reason at all. Boys obsess over things. Taking things to sometimes absurd extremes. And they're not doing any of it because they want to be rich, or want women, or want to be Elon Musk. Trust me. I've spent all my evenings of the last month on my latest electronics project. Do you think I'm doing that just because Charles Babbage also had a penis?

dennis_jeeves 6y ago
>Do you think I'm doing that just because Charles Babbage also had a penis? Lol. Well what I've noticed is that it is women who obsess over their gender, men far less so. Freud got it right I think - penis envy is real!
dragonwriter 6y ago
> Boys don't need role models. Boys are surrounded by role models in lots of areas in a way girls are not (and that was even more true a couple generations back.) They don't need any special effort to provide them because their social context is suffused with them, both real and fictional. > Boys do things because they are driven to do them for seemingly no reason at all. No, if you pay much attention to boys, there's plenty of direct inspiration from specific role models and images from their social context.
KaiserPro 6y ago
Boys do as they are taught. its not role models, its expectations. I as a man am not expected to become a carer. I am not expected to be a nurse. I am not expected to show emotion. I am expected to fight, talk through grunting and like sports. Girls are taught to be girls, they must be nice, they must smile, they must care, they must be demure. Now, this is automatic. You treat others how you see others being treated, unless you have reason to change your behavior. > I've spent all my evenings of the last month on my latest electronics project. Do you think I'm doing that just because Charles Babbage also had a penis? nope. but, try this: obsess over caring for orphans, injured animals, restoring habitats, etc etc. Kinda naff right? Its equally as hard as electronics, requires the same level of science. But its not done by boys because its "what girls do"
- castlecrasher2 6y ago
  This comment is strange to me, since the women I've seen that do the best work, particularly my CS high school teacher, were as hard-nosed as any man in the field; e.g., they knew their stuff and didn't let anyone else tell them otherwise. I don't think that sort of attitude comes from anywhere but the family unit. All this talk of orgs needing to cater to otherwise non-applicants and governments needing to intervene is just barking up the wrong tree.
  - KaiserPro 6y ago
    I have explicitly argued against hard intervention by government. I am not asking for state mandated _anything_ I am arguing for a societal change. For example I'm asking for adults to stop telling my daughter that her mum isn't a doctor, that I am. I want them to stop telling off my daughter when she says that I am the one that combs/washes/plaits her hair. I want them to stop yanking soft toys from my son saying "only girls play with soft toys" > All this talk of orgs needing to cater to otherwise non-applicants Nothing I have suggested is this.
- globular-toast 6y ago
  > I as a man am not expected to become a carer. I am not expected to be a nurse. I am not expected to show emotion. I am expected to fight, talk through grunting and like sports. Guess what, I wasn't "expected" to become a programmer either. I was outcast and bullied in school for being a geek and a boffin. I still did it, though, because I don't give a toss what you or anyone else says I should do. I don't fight, nor do I like sports. As for girls being taught to be nice etc., are you suggesting we teach them to be not nice? Or maybe you think they are all naturally unpleasant but they've been taught to have a nice façade? Personally I think girls who are nice are nice because they are nice. But that's just me. Who says caring for orphans or injured animals is naff? You? Certainly not me. I honestly don't know a single person who thinks that. You vastly overestimate the importance of nurture in all of this. Think about it: even if we assume boys and girls are treated differently, why is it that some boys grow up to be programmers while others grow up to wipe shit off toilets? They had exactly the same education. Exactly the same opportunities. Why would did one choose to earn a pittance wiping shit over earning loads sitting at a desk?