4 ms·

You don’t need to control supply with the equivalent of taxi medallions for cows to ensure that dairy production still exists in the country. There is no reason

by krrrh 6y ago

You don’t need to control supply with the equivalent of taxi medallions for cows to ensure that dairy production still exists in the country. There is no reasonable way to enter the market as a small local producer. The current system largely exists to protect the profits of large established agribusiness, fleece average families, and discourage innovation and enjoyment of food. Cheese quality, price, and availability in Canada is absolutely pathetic compared to any European country, the US, or Australia and New Zealand, and we are usually several years behind on product innovations present in other countries such as ultrafiltered, lactose free, grassfed, and A2 milk. > The cost of supporting farmers is borne by those who buy the farmers' products. This should be true of any product, but you don’t need to take out a million dollar loan to purchase the quota from existing producers in order to raise cattle, grow blueberries, or produce sugar beets. All those industries are fine and supported by their consumers.

throw0101a 6y ago
> Cheese quality, price, and availability in Canada is absolutely pathetic compared to any European country, the US, or Australia and New Zealand, and we are usually several years behind on product innovations present in other countries such as ultrafiltered, lactose free, grassfed, and A2 milk. The EU, US, and AU all subsidize; NZ is not subsidized IIRC. AFAICT, if you want to get rid of supply management, and have a domestic industry, then we'll have to have subsidies. > This should be true of any product, but you don’t need to take out a million dollar loan to purchase the quota from existing producers in order to raise cattle, grow blueberries, or produce sugar beets. All those industries are fine and supported by their consumers. The US is literally dumping milk from overproduction: * https://www.cnn.com/2019/08/22/politics/pfas-water-chemicals https://www.cnn.com/2019/08/22/politics/pfas-water-chemicals * https://www.wsj.com/articles/americas-dairy-farmers-dump-43-million-gallons-of-excess-milk-1476284353 https://www.wsj.com/articles/americas-dairy-farmers-dump-43-... What do you think will happen to our (Canadian) farmers if we all US market dumping? Not all product segments are the same, even with-in the agriculture sector.
- krrrh 6y ago
  We can also choose to impose tariffs on countries that unfairly subsidize their industries. Restricting external producers and restricting internal producers are actually separate issues that don't have to be entangled, as much as the Canadian dairy lobby loves sowing confusion on this by pretending that they are. If having autarkic dairy production is important for some reason, limiting opportunities for local producers to enter the market is a weird way of achieving it.
  - sudosysgen 6y ago
    This is a nice theoric discussion but it's just that. Geopolitics doesn't play fair, if Canada tries this it will just get massively steamrolled by retaliatory tariffs.
    - krrrh 6y ago
      Dairy quotas are a persistent stumbling block for trade negotiations as it is, and the Canadian dairy industry is so coddled and protected domestically that they don’t mind that they are restricted from export markets. That doesn’t address the failure of current policy to encourage or even allow dynamic domestic production of this category of commodities to meet consumer demand.
- Mandatum 6y ago
  New Zealand does make a lot of concessions for farmers - but not directly like other governments, most of which switched to dairy and wreaked havoc on our water systems over the past 2 decades. Sustainable farming is now becoming more popular in NZ, but the damage has already been done. More than 95% of our waterways shouldn't be swam in[0], compared to 2 decades ago only 10-15% were considered polluted (namely those near major cities and industrial areas). The government has given no penalties to farmers polluting the environment over the last 20 years, every change in government there's a slow push to have some sort of payment for what's been done, but the it changes again and all progress evaporates. The farmers who originally wreaked havoc on the land are retired now. Putting penalties in place now would just be penalizing their kids, investors or those who joined the farming boom in this country from the 90s. New Zealand is also a massive hotspot for testing new technology in farms. Speak to any dairy farmer here, they'll likely have some sort of regular cadence with overseas companies (usually Israel or Canada) to discuss product changes, management or updates to software or reporting, etc. But nearly none of the technology innovation happen in the country itself - as soon as development shows promise, it's acquired or relocated somewhere else leaving. With the price of land in New Zealand reaching all time highs as New Zealand continues to make no progress in reducing the amount of investment in land - I think farming as a profession will continue to push towards intensification just as it has been over the last 20 years. Land is expensive, they need returns to justify the investment. Around, and around we go until the land is a toxic slurry. [0] https://theconversation.com/polluted-drained-and-drying-out-new-warnings-on-new-zealands-rivers-and-lakes-136486 https://theconversation.com/polluted-drained-and-drying-out-...

by krrrh 6y ago

throw0101a 6y ago

> Cheese quality, price, and availability in Canada is absolutely pathetic compared to any European country, the US, or Australia and New Zealand, and we are usually several years behind on product innovations present in other countries such as ultrafiltered, lactose free, grassfed, and A2 milk. The EU, US, and AU all subsidize; NZ is not subsidized IIRC. AFAICT, if you want to get rid of supply management, and have a domestic industry, then we'll have to have subsidies. > This should be true of any product, but you don’t need to take out a million dollar loan to purchase the quota from existing producers in order to raise cattle, grow blueberries, or produce sugar beets. All those industries are fine and supported by their consumers. The US is literally dumping milk from overproduction: * https://www.cnn.com/2019/08/22/politics/pfas-water-chemicals https://www.cnn.com/2019/08/22/politics/pfas-water-chemicals * https://www.wsj.com/articles/americas-dairy-farmers-dump-43-million-gallons-of-excess-milk-1476284353 https://www.wsj.com/articles/americas-dairy-farmers-dump-43-... What do you think will happen to our (Canadian) farmers if we all US market dumping? Not all product segments are the same, even with-in the agriculture sector.

krrrh 6y ago
We can also choose to impose tariffs on countries that unfairly subsidize their industries. Restricting external producers and restricting internal producers are actually separate issues that don't have to be entangled, as much as the Canadian dairy lobby loves sowing confusion on this by pretending that they are. If having autarkic dairy production is important for some reason, limiting opportunities for local producers to enter the market is a weird way of achieving it.
- sudosysgen 6y ago
  This is a nice theoric discussion but it's just that. Geopolitics doesn't play fair, if Canada tries this it will just get massively steamrolled by retaliatory tariffs.
  - krrrh 6y ago
    Dairy quotas are a persistent stumbling block for trade negotiations as it is, and the Canadian dairy industry is so coddled and protected domestically that they don’t mind that they are restricted from export markets. That doesn’t address the failure of current policy to encourage or even allow dynamic domestic production of this category of commodities to meet consumer demand.
Mandatum 6y ago
New Zealand does make a lot of concessions for farmers - but not directly like other governments, most of which switched to dairy and wreaked havoc on our water systems over the past 2 decades. Sustainable farming is now becoming more popular in NZ, but the damage has already been done. More than 95% of our waterways shouldn't be swam in[0], compared to 2 decades ago only 10-15% were considered polluted (namely those near major cities and industrial areas). The government has given no penalties to farmers polluting the environment over the last 20 years, every change in government there's a slow push to have some sort of payment for what's been done, but the it changes again and all progress evaporates. The farmers who originally wreaked havoc on the land are retired now. Putting penalties in place now would just be penalizing their kids, investors or those who joined the farming boom in this country from the 90s. New Zealand is also a massive hotspot for testing new technology in farms. Speak to any dairy farmer here, they'll likely have some sort of regular cadence with overseas companies (usually Israel or Canada) to discuss product changes, management or updates to software or reporting, etc. But nearly none of the technology innovation happen in the country itself - as soon as development shows promise, it's acquired or relocated somewhere else leaving. With the price of land in New Zealand reaching all time highs as New Zealand continues to make no progress in reducing the amount of investment in land - I think farming as a profession will continue to push towards intensification just as it has been over the last 20 years. Land is expensive, they need returns to justify the investment. Around, and around we go until the land is a toxic slurry. [0] https://theconversation.com/polluted-drained-and-drying-out-new-warnings-on-new-zealands-rivers-and-lakes-136486 https://theconversation.com/polluted-drained-and-drying-out-...