4 ms·

As long as it is restricted to dairy it's funny, but whats really sad is that a majority of people want ever more of this kind of centralization and regulation.

As long as it is restricted to dairy it's funny, but whats really sad is that a majority of people want ever more of this kind of centralization and regulation. I have a feeling that many western countries are on a slow downwards spiral to become "shithole countries". Let's see whose constitution is strongest and allows the people to buy the f*ing dairy they want. I bet this will not be our EU, the protectionist mastermind

belval 6y ago
All joking aside though, it is more complicated than a "big dairy cartel" with strong lobbying power. See what happens at least in Quebec is that we kept the family agriculture model with single family actually owning there farm and a hundred cows. In that context, they can't be competitive with US milk which has megafarms and can mass produce basically any animal product these days. To solve this issue the government create the milk quotas and limited imports of milk from the US. While I agree that it creates a somewhat absurd situation, I disagree that it's necessarily a bad thing. I much prefer drinking milk from my farmer friend who takes good care of his cows than some megafarm in the US.
- throw0101a 6y ago
  > In that context, they can't be competitive with US milk which has megafarms and can mass produce basically any animal product these days. On top of that, the US government subsidizes/bails out those mega-farms as well. US dairy consumption has been going down for decades, and yet production volume is up. Milk is being dumped into the (metaphorical? literal?) gutter because of over-production. See also EU: > Multibillion-euro dairy multinationals are exploiting rock-bottom European milk prices to expand aggressively into West Africa. Over five years, they have nearly tripled their exports to the region, shipping milk powder produced by heavily subsidized European farmers to be transformed into liquid milk for the region's booming middle class. * https://www.politico.eu/article/eus-milk-scramble-for-africa/ https://www.politico.eu/article/eus-milk-scramble-for-africa... AFAICT, the only country that has a completely open market is New Zealand.
  - cbozeman 6y ago
    > Milk is being dumped into the (metaphorical? literal?) gutter because of over-production. I truly hope this isn't the case, because I love cheese and would gladly do my part to help get rid of the excess production.
    - throw0101a 6y ago
      * https://www.cnn.com/2020/04/15/business/milk-dumping-coronavirus/index.html https://www.cnn.com/2020/04/15/business/milk-dumping-coronav...
    - WanderPanda 6y ago
      In some years ago this happened: https://adisagroblog.wordpress.com/2009/09/17/milchkrise1-die-riskante-kraft-der-symbolik/ https://adisagroblog.wordpress.com/2009/09/17/milchkrise1-di...
- emilecantin 6y ago
  As a fellow Québécois, I have one major issue with the current system. I live very near a dairy farm; I know the owners well and I love their approach, how they treat their cows, etc. I'd love to buy _their_ milk, but I just can't. A couple times a week, a truck comes in, takes all the milk and brings it to a plant in St-Hyacinthe or whatever (1+ hour from me) where it gets mixed with the milk from all the other producers. So yes, we have managed to protect the "family farm" model, but you can't actually buy their milk. To me, that's pretty stupid; I don't mind the price, but I do mind not knowing where my milk comes from.
  - belval 6y ago
    I get your point but raw milk is 3.5% fat it has to be processed to be ready for human consumption so I don't see how it can get much better than a plant "only" (on a global scale) 1 hour away. To be clear I am not a fan of all the restrictions either. One of my friend brought fresh cheese curds from his farm to a diner between friends and explained that just for doing that the fine could be as high as 4000$.
    - valarauko 6y ago
      > I get your point but raw milk is 3.5% fat it has to be processed to be ready for human consumption I'm confused - are you suggesting that raw milk is unfit for consumption due to the fat content? I ask because I (and probably lots of the other Indians on here) grew up drinking raw buffalo (Asian Water Buffalo) milk at home. That's about 7-8% fat. I knew plenty of people who got raw cow milk as well. Of course, it was standard practice to "cook" the milk before consumption, which would cause cream to separate out. The cream would be skimmed off for other purposes, but usually the kids got the full cream milk.
      - davidivadavid 6y ago
        Right, 3.5% is your typical whole milk you find everywhere. Nothing special about the fat percentage.
      - belval 6y ago
- WanderPanda 6y ago
  > I much prefer drinking milk from my farmer friend who takes good care of his cows than some megafarm in the US. You are right in using the singular “I” in that sentence but to make it compatible with the policy you are proposing you have to swap it with “we” because thats what policies do, they force others to adhere to your preferences. To get to the bottom of it: By putting it like this you are basically stating that most individuals are not able to make this decision on their own. First that goes against what I believe Individuals are capable of, but second exposing a society for too long to these paternalistic policies seems to subtract from the capability and willingness of individuals to take responsibility for their life
  - belval 6y ago
    HN is an international US-based forum, that's why I used I. As far as Quebec (and Canada to a certain extent) is concerned these policies are generally popular which is why they were not struck down. There is also the idea of food independence from the US. Trump and COVID showed that when a crisis occurs the US interests will be put first and I don't see anything positive coming from outsourcing our food production and transformation to a southern neighbour that might cut the tap with little warning.
8note 6y ago
A shithole country being one forced to accept cheap, poor quality American or Chinese products at the expense of local industry?
- waihtis 6y ago
  Over time, this will incentivize local players to also degrade their quality. The best answer is probably somewhere in between the extremes.

belval 6y ago

All joking aside though, it is more complicated than a "big dairy cartel" with strong lobbying power. See what happens at least in Quebec is that we kept the family agriculture model with single family actually owning there farm and a hundred cows. In that context, they can't be competitive with US milk which has megafarms and can mass produce basically any animal product these days. To solve this issue the government create the milk quotas and limited imports of milk from the US. While I agree that it creates a somewhat absurd situation, I disagree that it's necessarily a bad thing. I much prefer drinking milk from my farmer friend who takes good care of his cows than some megafarm in the US.

throw0101a 6y ago
> In that context, they can't be competitive with US milk which has megafarms and can mass produce basically any animal product these days. On top of that, the US government subsidizes/bails out those mega-farms as well. US dairy consumption has been going down for decades, and yet production volume is up. Milk is being dumped into the (metaphorical? literal?) gutter because of over-production. See also EU: > Multibillion-euro dairy multinationals are exploiting rock-bottom European milk prices to expand aggressively into West Africa. Over five years, they have nearly tripled their exports to the region, shipping milk powder produced by heavily subsidized European farmers to be transformed into liquid milk for the region's booming middle class. * https://www.politico.eu/article/eus-milk-scramble-for-africa/ https://www.politico.eu/article/eus-milk-scramble-for-africa... AFAICT, the only country that has a completely open market is New Zealand.
- cbozeman 6y ago
  > Milk is being dumped into the (metaphorical? literal?) gutter because of over-production. I truly hope this isn't the case, because I love cheese and would gladly do my part to help get rid of the excess production.
  - throw0101a 6y ago
    * https://www.cnn.com/2020/04/15/business/milk-dumping-coronavirus/index.html https://www.cnn.com/2020/04/15/business/milk-dumping-coronav...
  - WanderPanda 6y ago
    In some years ago this happened: https://adisagroblog.wordpress.com/2009/09/17/milchkrise1-die-riskante-kraft-der-symbolik/ https://adisagroblog.wordpress.com/2009/09/17/milchkrise1-di...
emilecantin 6y ago
As a fellow Québécois, I have one major issue with the current system. I live very near a dairy farm; I know the owners well and I love their approach, how they treat their cows, etc. I'd love to buy _their_ milk, but I just can't. A couple times a week, a truck comes in, takes all the milk and brings it to a plant in St-Hyacinthe or whatever (1+ hour from me) where it gets mixed with the milk from all the other producers. So yes, we have managed to protect the "family farm" model, but you can't actually buy their milk. To me, that's pretty stupid; I don't mind the price, but I do mind not knowing where my milk comes from.
- belval 6y ago
  I get your point but raw milk is 3.5% fat it has to be processed to be ready for human consumption so I don't see how it can get much better than a plant "only" (on a global scale) 1 hour away. To be clear I am not a fan of all the restrictions either. One of my friend brought fresh cheese curds from his farm to a diner between friends and explained that just for doing that the fine could be as high as 4000$.
  - valarauko 6y ago
    > I get your point but raw milk is 3.5% fat it has to be processed to be ready for human consumption I'm confused - are you suggesting that raw milk is unfit for consumption due to the fat content? I ask because I (and probably lots of the other Indians on here) grew up drinking raw buffalo (Asian Water Buffalo) milk at home. That's about 7-8% fat. I knew plenty of people who got raw cow milk as well. Of course, it was standard practice to "cook" the milk before consumption, which would cause cream to separate out. The cream would be skimmed off for other purposes, but usually the kids got the full cream milk.
    - davidivadavid 6y ago
      Right, 3.5% is your typical whole milk you find everywhere. Nothing special about the fat percentage.
    - belval 6y ago
WanderPanda 6y ago
> I much prefer drinking milk from my farmer friend who takes good care of his cows than some megafarm in the US. You are right in using the singular “I” in that sentence but to make it compatible with the policy you are proposing you have to swap it with “we” because thats what policies do, they force others to adhere to your preferences. To get to the bottom of it: By putting it like this you are basically stating that most individuals are not able to make this decision on their own. First that goes against what I believe Individuals are capable of, but second exposing a society for too long to these paternalistic policies seems to subtract from the capability and willingness of individuals to take responsibility for their life
- belval 6y ago
  HN is an international US-based forum, that's why I used I. As far as Quebec (and Canada to a certain extent) is concerned these policies are generally popular which is why they were not struck down. There is also the idea of food independence from the US. Trump and COVID showed that when a crisis occurs the US interests will be put first and I don't see anything positive coming from outsourcing our food production and transformation to a southern neighbour that might cut the tap with little warning.

8note 6y ago

A shithole country being one forced to accept cheap, poor quality American or Chinese products at the expense of local industry?

waihtis 6y ago
Over time, this will incentivize local players to also degrade their quality. The best answer is probably somewhere in between the extremes.