7 ms·

You are conflating two issues: supply management and pasteurization. For raw milk, it is illegal in plenty of places (Nordics, Scotland, England requires licen

You are conflating two issues: supply management and pasteurization. For raw milk, it is illegal in plenty of places (Nordics, Scotland, England requires license, Australia): * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Raw_milk#Legal_status https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Raw_milk#Legal_status As for supply management, the first question to ask is: does Canada want a domestic dairy industry? If the answer is "yes", then it becomes "how will it be supported?" Because both the US [0][1] and EU [2] subsidize their dairy farmers out of general tax revenues: tax dollars are being sent to them regardless of whether you drink milk or not (lactose intolerant, vegans). In Canada's supply management system, dairy prices are higher, but if you're not a dairy consumer, you don't pay anything. The cost of supporting farmers is borne by those who buy the farmers' products. If we Canadians want "cheap" dairy, we can have it: but let's not fool ourselves that it will not come with some kind of cost. * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agricultural_subsidy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agricultural_subsidy [0] https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2020-04-02/farmers-are-dumping-milk-in-latest-blow-to-battered-u-s-dairy https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2020-04-02/farmers-a... [1] https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2019/06/12/best-way-help-dairy-farmers-is-get-them-out-dairy-farming/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2019/06/12/best-way-... [2] https://www.politico.eu/article/eus-milk-scramble-for-africa/ https://www.politico.eu/article/eus-milk-scramble-for-africa...

AlanYx 6y ago
I think you're misreading the reference to "raw milk" -- I don't think that poster is referring to pasteurization, just the cost of TPQ quotas. For those not familiar with Canada's crazy system, farmers must own milk quotas in order to be able to sell milk beyond the farm gate, and this is very aggressively enforced. Quota prices are extraordinarily high; currently $24,000 CAD/cow in Ontario and Quebec, $36,500 CAD/cow in BC, up to around $44,000/cow in Alberta. The effect of this is that even opening a small hobby farm is impossible without huge investments (e.g., the upfront cost just to buy just the quotas, not the land or the cows, for a small 100 cow venture in Ontario is $2.4 million). At one time long ago, this system was billed as protecting the family farm, but in practice now it drives the death of family farms, as people with quotas slowly sell out to large producers and new farmers cannot enter the marketplace because of the quota cost wall.
- kijin 6y ago
  That sounds a lot like how taxi medallions work in many large cities. Anybody want to start an Uber for Canadian milk that uses P2P to take advantage of the "beyond the farm gate" loophole somehow?
  - motohagiography 6y ago
    It would be a dark web service paid for in bitcoin. Seriously, if you want sell raw dairy products in Canada and evade law enforcement, just pretend you are a meth dealer or international money launderer as a cover because they'll ignore you.
motohagiography 6y ago
Pasturization is used as a pretext to support supply management. Considering milk has been a staple for some 1000+ years, said dairy non-consumers in Canada are a minority interest that isn't a representative sample of the market or the culture. Liberalizing the dairy system is not just about "cheap" dairy either, it's about enabling people to make a relatively independent living outside cities, and provide high quality and diversified products to supply food to their regions. This is what supply management prevents. Also, the point of a market for something people want is that it doesn't need subsidies or have quotas. There is literally no legitimate benefit the quota system provides that could not be handled by import tariffs instead. That is, to actually enforce borders and markets instead of hollowing them out with globalized and dumped products from countries with abusive labour practices and other corrupt subsidies. Not only this, but the monopoly has has compromised our political processes to where it manipulates party processes. It's laughably corrupt and is an example of what makes Canada seem like a write-off economy in its other sectors as well.
krrrh 6y ago
You don’t need to control supply with the equivalent of taxi medallions for cows to ensure that dairy production still exists in the country. There is no reasonable way to enter the market as a small local producer. The current system largely exists to protect the profits of large established agribusiness, fleece average families, and discourage innovation and enjoyment of food. Cheese quality, price, and availability in Canada is absolutely pathetic compared to any European country, the US, or Australia and New Zealand, and we are usually several years behind on product innovations present in other countries such as ultrafiltered, lactose free, grassfed, and A2 milk. > The cost of supporting farmers is borne by those who buy the farmers' products. This should be true of any product, but you don’t need to take out a million dollar loan to purchase the quota from existing producers in order to raise cattle, grow blueberries, or produce sugar beets. All those industries are fine and supported by their consumers.
- throw0101a 6y ago
  > Cheese quality, price, and availability in Canada is absolutely pathetic compared to any European country, the US, or Australia and New Zealand, and we are usually several years behind on product innovations present in other countries such as ultrafiltered, lactose free, grassfed, and A2 milk. The EU, US, and AU all subsidize; NZ is not subsidized IIRC. AFAICT, if you want to get rid of supply management, and have a domestic industry, then we'll have to have subsidies. > This should be true of any product, but you don’t need to take out a million dollar loan to purchase the quota from existing producers in order to raise cattle, grow blueberries, or produce sugar beets. All those industries are fine and supported by their consumers. The US is literally dumping milk from overproduction: * https://www.cnn.com/2019/08/22/politics/pfas-water-chemicals https://www.cnn.com/2019/08/22/politics/pfas-water-chemicals * https://www.wsj.com/articles/americas-dairy-farmers-dump-43-million-gallons-of-excess-milk-1476284353 https://www.wsj.com/articles/americas-dairy-farmers-dump-43-... What do you think will happen to our (Canadian) farmers if we all US market dumping? Not all product segments are the same, even with-in the agriculture sector.
  - krrrh 6y ago
    We can also choose to impose tariffs on countries that unfairly subsidize their industries. Restricting external producers and restricting internal producers are actually separate issues that don't have to be entangled, as much as the Canadian dairy lobby loves sowing confusion on this by pretending that they are. If having autarkic dairy production is important for some reason, limiting opportunities for local producers to enter the market is a weird way of achieving it.

AlanYx 6y ago

I think you're misreading the reference to "raw milk" -- I don't think that poster is referring to pasteurization, just the cost of TPQ quotas. For those not familiar with Canada's crazy system, farmers must own milk quotas in order to be able to sell milk beyond the farm gate, and this is very aggressively enforced. Quota prices are extraordinarily high; currently $24,000 CAD/cow in Ontario and Quebec, $36,500 CAD/cow in BC, up to around $44,000/cow in Alberta. The effect of this is that even opening a small hobby farm is impossible without huge investments (e.g., the upfront cost just to buy just the quotas, not the land or the cows, for a small 100 cow venture in Ontario is $2.4 million). At one time long ago, this system was billed as protecting the family farm, but in practice now it drives the death of family farms, as people with quotas slowly sell out to large producers and new farmers cannot enter the marketplace because of the quota cost wall.

kijin 6y ago
That sounds a lot like how taxi medallions work in many large cities. Anybody want to start an Uber for Canadian milk that uses P2P to take advantage of the "beyond the farm gate" loophole somehow?
- motohagiography 6y ago
  It would be a dark web service paid for in bitcoin. Seriously, if you want sell raw dairy products in Canada and evade law enforcement, just pretend you are a meth dealer or international money launderer as a cover because they'll ignore you.

motohagiography 6y ago

Pasturization is used as a pretext to support supply management. Considering milk has been a staple for some 1000+ years, said dairy non-consumers in Canada are a minority interest that isn't a representative sample of the market or the culture. Liberalizing the dairy system is not just about "cheap" dairy either, it's about enabling people to make a relatively independent living outside cities, and provide high quality and diversified products to supply food to their regions. This is what supply management prevents. Also, the point of a market for something people want is that it doesn't need subsidies or have quotas. There is literally no legitimate benefit the quota system provides that could not be handled by import tariffs instead. That is, to actually enforce borders and markets instead of hollowing them out with globalized and dumped products from countries with abusive labour practices and other corrupt subsidies. Not only this, but the monopoly has has compromised our political processes to where it manipulates party processes. It's laughably corrupt and is an example of what makes Canada seem like a write-off economy in its other sectors as well.

krrrh 6y ago

You don’t need to control supply with the equivalent of taxi medallions for cows to ensure that dairy production still exists in the country. There is no reasonable way to enter the market as a small local producer. The current system largely exists to protect the profits of large established agribusiness, fleece average families, and discourage innovation and enjoyment of food. Cheese quality, price, and availability in Canada is absolutely pathetic compared to any European country, the US, or Australia and New Zealand, and we are usually several years behind on product innovations present in other countries such as ultrafiltered, lactose free, grassfed, and A2 milk. > The cost of supporting farmers is borne by those who buy the farmers' products. This should be true of any product, but you don’t need to take out a million dollar loan to purchase the quota from existing producers in order to raise cattle, grow blueberries, or produce sugar beets. All those industries are fine and supported by their consumers.

throw0101a 6y ago
> Cheese quality, price, and availability in Canada is absolutely pathetic compared to any European country, the US, or Australia and New Zealand, and we are usually several years behind on product innovations present in other countries such as ultrafiltered, lactose free, grassfed, and A2 milk. The EU, US, and AU all subsidize; NZ is not subsidized IIRC. AFAICT, if you want to get rid of supply management, and have a domestic industry, then we'll have to have subsidies. > This should be true of any product, but you don’t need to take out a million dollar loan to purchase the quota from existing producers in order to raise cattle, grow blueberries, or produce sugar beets. All those industries are fine and supported by their consumers. The US is literally dumping milk from overproduction: * https://www.cnn.com/2019/08/22/politics/pfas-water-chemicals https://www.cnn.com/2019/08/22/politics/pfas-water-chemicals * https://www.wsj.com/articles/americas-dairy-farmers-dump-43-million-gallons-of-excess-milk-1476284353 https://www.wsj.com/articles/americas-dairy-farmers-dump-43-... What do you think will happen to our (Canadian) farmers if we all US market dumping? Not all product segments are the same, even with-in the agriculture sector.
- krrrh 6y ago
  We can also choose to impose tariffs on countries that unfairly subsidize their industries. Restricting external producers and restricting internal producers are actually separate issues that don't have to be entangled, as much as the Canadian dairy lobby loves sowing confusion on this by pretending that they are. If having autarkic dairy production is important for some reason, limiting opportunities for local producers to enter the market is a weird way of achieving it.