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Some years ago the dairy monopoly in Canada caused a schism in its conservative party because the dairy board people have so much power. What was set up as a g

Some years ago the dairy monopoly in Canada caused a schism in its conservative party because the dairy board people have so much power. What was set up as a guaranteed market for farmers has become an oligopoly of agribusiness. Quebec has this for maple syrup as well. It's corruption. Dairy quota discussions quickly become a proxy for the role of the federal government. They say they maintain "good" prices for both producers and consumers, but the price inflation of cheese and beef has been absurd and cheese has become a luxury good. What it means is that it is effectively illegal to start a dairy farm or a small scale cheese making operation. There is more enforcement against black market raw milk products than there is against meth dealers. The regulators insist it's to protect people from being poisoned, but it's really to protect the monopoly power and political sway. If you want to get a few cows and start an artisinal cheese business and grow it, you are out of luck. The city administrative classes hate rural people and they create and maintain these "safety" regulations to stamp out the culture. The country is so bland they have effectively succeeded. It's never just about butter. :)

dstick 6y ago
Saw a documentary about that a while back. Just Googled it for anyone that's interested in how stuff like this starts and is maintained exactly like the parent describes: The Maple Syrup Heist on Netflix.
canucktrash669 6y ago
I’ve seen an analysis a while back showing that compared to US and EU, Canada subsidized agriculture to a lesser extent by a few multiples. Quotas might effectively shift the cost of subsidies to consumers, but they’re still lower. Now, if I could find this now.
- BelenusMordred 6y ago
  This isn't a subsidy though, it's quotas, intentional protection from superior competition entering the market.
throw0101a 6y ago
You are conflating two issues: supply management and pasteurization. For raw milk, it is illegal in plenty of places (Nordics, Scotland, England requires license, Australia): * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Raw_milk#Legal_status https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Raw_milk#Legal_status As for supply management, the first question to ask is: does Canada want a domestic dairy industry? If the answer is "yes", then it becomes "how will it be supported?" Because both the US [0][1] and EU [2] subsidize their dairy farmers out of general tax revenues: tax dollars are being sent to them regardless of whether you drink milk or not (lactose intolerant, vegans). In Canada's supply management system, dairy prices are higher, but if you're not a dairy consumer, you don't pay anything. The cost of supporting farmers is borne by those who buy the farmers' products. If we Canadians want "cheap" dairy, we can have it: but let's not fool ourselves that it will not come with some kind of cost. * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agricultural_subsidy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agricultural_subsidy [0] https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2020-04-02/farmers-are-dumping-milk-in-latest-blow-to-battered-u-s-dairy https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2020-04-02/farmers-a... [1] https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2019/06/12/best-way-help-dairy-farmers-is-get-them-out-dairy-farming/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2019/06/12/best-way-... [2] https://www.politico.eu/article/eus-milk-scramble-for-africa/ https://www.politico.eu/article/eus-milk-scramble-for-africa...
- AlanYx 6y ago
  I think you're misreading the reference to "raw milk" -- I don't think that poster is referring to pasteurization, just the cost of TPQ quotas. For those not familiar with Canada's crazy system, farmers must own milk quotas in order to be able to sell milk beyond the farm gate, and this is very aggressively enforced. Quota prices are extraordinarily high; currently $24,000 CAD/cow in Ontario and Quebec, $36,500 CAD/cow in BC, up to around $44,000/cow in Alberta. The effect of this is that even opening a small hobby farm is impossible without huge investments (e.g., the upfront cost just to buy just the quotas, not the land or the cows, for a small 100 cow venture in Ontario is $2.4 million). At one time long ago, this system was billed as protecting the family farm, but in practice now it drives the death of family farms, as people with quotas slowly sell out to large producers and new farmers cannot enter the marketplace because of the quota cost wall.
dukeofdoom 6y ago
People were smuggling cheese from the states all the time. Canada is on serious downward slope. Super expensive housing, and food prices and high taxes. And outside of the big cities, very little development in decades. Thinking of moving back to Europe.
908B64B197 6y ago
> Quebec has this for maple syrup as well. The economics for maple syrup are a little different. Most maple groves are located on very fertile land that could be converted for agricultural use. If the price of syrup falls too low, it would be tempting to convert that land to farmland. Now, converting farmland back to a healthy maple grove would take 40+ years (the time it takes for sugar maple to grow to a point where it starts producing sap).
- AdrianB1 6y ago
  OK, so what is the problem, is maple syrup an essential product that is at risk if farmers convert the land for other agricultural use? I am an European that never consumed maple syrup, so I am trying to understand what is this about.
  - 908B64B197 6y ago
    > is maple syrup an essential product No. > that is at risk if farmers convert the land for other agricultural use? Yes. You basically have to let very productive land untouched for 40+ years before you can have a single harvest. At current prices it's not worth it. Once a maple grove is gone, it's gone forever. Current pricing makes it a viable proposition for farmers to keep their groves.
    - AdrianB1 6y ago
      That is the whole point: if maple syrup is not an essential product and some farmers decide to change the use of their land to something else, what is the problem you cannot produce it anymore in the next 40 years? You just give up to some of the syrup, it's not like if supply will reduce and prices will increase you will have to produce more. You just move on and don't do it.
nicbou 6y ago
I remember how expensive cheese was in Quebec, and wine too for that matter. After moving to Germany, it felt weird buying those things and not just when I'm celebrating something. It completely changed my picnic game.
dijereedan 6y ago
Is that what you would call regulatory capture?

dstick 6y ago

Saw a documentary about that a while back. Just Googled it for anyone that's interested in how stuff like this starts and is maintained exactly like the parent describes: The Maple Syrup Heist on Netflix.

canucktrash669 6y ago

I’ve seen an analysis a while back showing that compared to US and EU, Canada subsidized agriculture to a lesser extent by a few multiples. Quotas might effectively shift the cost of subsidies to consumers, but they’re still lower. Now, if I could find this now.

BelenusMordred 6y ago
This isn't a subsidy though, it's quotas, intentional protection from superior competition entering the market.

throw0101a 6y ago

You are conflating two issues: supply management and pasteurization. For raw milk, it is illegal in plenty of places (Nordics, Scotland, England requires license, Australia): * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Raw_milk#Legal_status https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Raw_milk#Legal_status As for supply management, the first question to ask is: does Canada want a domestic dairy industry? If the answer is "yes", then it becomes "how will it be supported?" Because both the US [0][1] and EU [2] subsidize their dairy farmers out of general tax revenues: tax dollars are being sent to them regardless of whether you drink milk or not (lactose intolerant, vegans). In Canada's supply management system, dairy prices are higher, but if you're not a dairy consumer, you don't pay anything. The cost of supporting farmers is borne by those who buy the farmers' products. If we Canadians want "cheap" dairy, we can have it: but let's not fool ourselves that it will not come with some kind of cost. * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agricultural_subsidy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agricultural_subsidy [0] https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2020-04-02/farmers-are-dumping-milk-in-latest-blow-to-battered-u-s-dairy https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2020-04-02/farmers-a... [1] https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2019/06/12/best-way-help-dairy-farmers-is-get-them-out-dairy-farming/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2019/06/12/best-way-... [2] https://www.politico.eu/article/eus-milk-scramble-for-africa/ https://www.politico.eu/article/eus-milk-scramble-for-africa...

AlanYx 6y ago
I think you're misreading the reference to "raw milk" -- I don't think that poster is referring to pasteurization, just the cost of TPQ quotas. For those not familiar with Canada's crazy system, farmers must own milk quotas in order to be able to sell milk beyond the farm gate, and this is very aggressively enforced. Quota prices are extraordinarily high; currently $24,000 CAD/cow in Ontario and Quebec, $36,500 CAD/cow in BC, up to around $44,000/cow in Alberta. The effect of this is that even opening a small hobby farm is impossible without huge investments (e.g., the upfront cost just to buy just the quotas, not the land or the cows, for a small 100 cow venture in Ontario is $2.4 million). At one time long ago, this system was billed as protecting the family farm, but in practice now it drives the death of family farms, as people with quotas slowly sell out to large producers and new farmers cannot enter the marketplace because of the quota cost wall.

dukeofdoom 6y ago

People were smuggling cheese from the states all the time. Canada is on serious downward slope. Super expensive housing, and food prices and high taxes. And outside of the big cities, very little development in decades. Thinking of moving back to Europe.

908B64B197 6y ago

> Quebec has this for maple syrup as well. The economics for maple syrup are a little different. Most maple groves are located on very fertile land that could be converted for agricultural use. If the price of syrup falls too low, it would be tempting to convert that land to farmland. Now, converting farmland back to a healthy maple grove would take 40+ years (the time it takes for sugar maple to grow to a point where it starts producing sap).

AdrianB1 6y ago
OK, so what is the problem, is maple syrup an essential product that is at risk if farmers convert the land for other agricultural use? I am an European that never consumed maple syrup, so I am trying to understand what is this about.
- 908B64B197 6y ago
  > is maple syrup an essential product No. > that is at risk if farmers convert the land for other agricultural use? Yes. You basically have to let very productive land untouched for 40+ years before you can have a single harvest. At current prices it's not worth it. Once a maple grove is gone, it's gone forever. Current pricing makes it a viable proposition for farmers to keep their groves.
  - AdrianB1 6y ago
    That is the whole point: if maple syrup is not an essential product and some farmers decide to change the use of their land to something else, what is the problem you cannot produce it anymore in the next 40 years? You just give up to some of the syrup, it's not like if supply will reduce and prices will increase you will have to produce more. You just move on and don't do it.

nicbou 6y ago

I remember how expensive cheese was in Quebec, and wine too for that matter. After moving to Germany, it felt weird buying those things and not just when I'm celebrating something. It completely changed my picnic game.

dijereedan 6y ago

Is that what you would call regulatory capture?