6 ms·

The grisly trials that gave poison to prisoners

37 points by Petiver 6y ago

KDJohnBrown 6y ago
Exactly what I would expect from abrahamists.
- koheripbal 6y ago
  This bigotted comment is not welcome here.
  - KDJohnBrown 6y ago
    Is it untrue? This is history of the power structures of abrahamic religions. All 3 abrahamic religions are a history of inflicting unimaginable cruelty on others. This article itself is about the holiest of holies poisoning others to protect himself.
    - michaelmrose 6y ago
      Your comment wasn't a substantial discussion on this point it was just a bigoted quip.
      - KDJohnBrown 6y ago
        It was still honest. Abrahamist history is a road of graves paved in blood and abuse. Of course it was an abrahamic religious leader who did this. I mean, who else has the ability to be so cruel and sociopathic with zero repercussions?
      - KDJohnBrown 6y ago
        Forgive me for invoking Godwin’s law, but it is relevant. El Popa here behaved exactly in the same monstrous actions as Nazi Doctor Josef Mengel. Had this article been about Josef Mengel, and I said this about Nazis instead of Abrahamic cultists, would I still be a bigot in your eyes?
  - 1996 6y ago
    I find that comment insightful, as religion may have a part of "blame" for people who disagree with the practice. However, other non religious system (communist USSR, post-revolution France) did or still do the same: they did run experiments on convicts or war prisoners. We all benefit from the science gained. The big question is whether the greater good as defined by a religion or non religious belief-system can offset the perceived negatives - but there are clearly positive too: the prisoners mentioned in the article were condemned to death already. By volunteering, one survived: > As a reward for his services, the prisoner had his death sentence commuted to life as a galley slave Down the thread, people mention China. Personally, I trust China CCP and I believe it is trying to inflict as little hurt as possible while maximizing the greater good for the whole society. It is sad the idea of a greater good now looks quaint.
    - wizzwizz4 6y ago
      When people start justifying genocides with “the greater good”, they've ventured into children's book evil territory. In what real-world situation is genocide ever a good thing? They might even be doing good on net – but there's a whole lot of evil they could just cut out. It doesn't count as “for the greater good” if the evil doesn't cause or allow the good, which it blatantly doesn't; if anything, it prevents it.
      - WanderPanda 6y ago
        When people start justifying anything with “the greater good”, they've ventured into children's book evil territory
        wizzwizz4 6y ago
        True. If your utilitarian calculus actually works out, you don't have to constantly tell people that.
      - cbozeman 6y ago
        https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P2LTdslZSMw https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P2LTdslZSMw
  - swayvil 6y ago
    I dunno man. Slinging an accusation of "bigot" and then censoring his reply (away from all possibility of understanding or argument) ain't too great either.
    - koheripbal 6y ago
      I don't think saying "I'm not surprised people of <certain religion> support murder." is making a substantive comment, even if you DID agree with it. It was just a dumb comment. We should encourage substantive comments - even if we disagree with them. I don't want this place to turn into Reddit with knee-jerk SLAM journalism and low quality comments.
      - swayvil 6y ago
        So what do you want, right speech or free speech? Is there a method that serves both ends?
        koheripbal 6y ago
        I want adult substantive speech. I'd prefer a censorship mechanism that still allows access to the original comment, but given the system we have, I'm ok with removing that particular comment. Remember that neither extreme is a good place. Allowing link spam, doxxing comments, CP, etc... that isn't correct either. I don't think we've figured out a good solution for this societal problem, but you offering a false choice of "pick and extreme" is not constructive.
        swayvil 6y ago
        It sounds to me like you want right speech. As for the accusation. Just don't.
DyslexicAtheist 6y ago
> Hair-raising sixteenth-century reports emphasize the tests’ control arms and societal benefit. not uncommon in our present that scientists engage in such things. Ethically there is no difference in this to today's psychologists and MD's working on enhanced interrogation techniques. The type of people employed by CCP in Uyghurs camps, ICE facilities, or US black sites (and US prisons) that are routinely used for torture. Compared to what we do today the content in this story is just a side-course to a whole menu of evil. The real shocker is that every one of us is capable[3] of these kind of acts (whether people recognize that ability inside themselves or not) ___ [0] The Role of Medical Professionals in Detention and Interrogation Operations https://detaineetaskforce.org/pdf/Chapter-6_Role-of-Medical-Professionals.pdf https://detaineetaskforce.org/pdf/Chapter-6_Role-of-Medical-... [1] "Enhanced" interrogation of detainees: do psychologists and psychiatrists participate? https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2561033/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2561033/ [2] Mental Health Professionals in the “Enhanced” Interrogation Room https://www.psychiatrictimes.com/view/mental-health-professionals-enhanced-interrogation-room https://www.psychiatrictimes.com/view/mental-health-professi... [3] The Act of Killing https://www.imdb.com/title/tt2375605/ https://www.imdb.com/title/tt2375605/
- pessimizer 6y ago
  Your third footnote is no good. It's about a Cold War backed military exterminating "communists." While that was a common thing for a large portion of the 20th century, there's no evidence presented in that movie that the characteristics of the mass murderers of penis-stealing witch-communist students are universal.
  - DyslexicAtheist 6y ago
    what in your opinion would be a better example of the (rather obvious) point I'm trying to make?
    - throwaway13337 6y ago
      I think you have cause and effect backwards. Deciding the truth and then finding the evidence to support it after we've decided what the truth is happens to be a big problem in our society today. It's not obvious that every person is capable of horrible evil even though there are times and places where it seems that there are many normal people willing to participate.

37 points by Petiver 6y ago

KDJohnBrown 6y ago

Exactly what I would expect from abrahamists.

koheripbal 6y ago
This bigotted comment is not welcome here.
- KDJohnBrown 6y ago
  Is it untrue? This is history of the power structures of abrahamic religions. All 3 abrahamic religions are a history of inflicting unimaginable cruelty on others. This article itself is about the holiest of holies poisoning others to protect himself.
  - michaelmrose 6y ago
    Your comment wasn't a substantial discussion on this point it was just a bigoted quip.
    - KDJohnBrown 6y ago
      It was still honest. Abrahamist history is a road of graves paved in blood and abuse. Of course it was an abrahamic religious leader who did this. I mean, who else has the ability to be so cruel and sociopathic with zero repercussions?
    - KDJohnBrown 6y ago
      Forgive me for invoking Godwin’s law, but it is relevant. El Popa here behaved exactly in the same monstrous actions as Nazi Doctor Josef Mengel. Had this article been about Josef Mengel, and I said this about Nazis instead of Abrahamic cultists, would I still be a bigot in your eyes?
- 1996 6y ago
  I find that comment insightful, as religion may have a part of "blame" for people who disagree with the practice. However, other non religious system (communist USSR, post-revolution France) did or still do the same: they did run experiments on convicts or war prisoners. We all benefit from the science gained. The big question is whether the greater good as defined by a religion or non religious belief-system can offset the perceived negatives - but there are clearly positive too: the prisoners mentioned in the article were condemned to death already. By volunteering, one survived: > As a reward for his services, the prisoner had his death sentence commuted to life as a galley slave Down the thread, people mention China. Personally, I trust China CCP and I believe it is trying to inflict as little hurt as possible while maximizing the greater good for the whole society. It is sad the idea of a greater good now looks quaint.
  - wizzwizz4 6y ago
    When people start justifying genocides with “the greater good”, they've ventured into children's book evil territory. In what real-world situation is genocide ever a good thing? They might even be doing good on net – but there's a whole lot of evil they could just cut out. It doesn't count as “for the greater good” if the evil doesn't cause or allow the good, which it blatantly doesn't; if anything, it prevents it.
    - WanderPanda 6y ago
      When people start justifying anything with “the greater good”, they've ventured into children's book evil territory
      - wizzwizz4 6y ago
        True. If your utilitarian calculus actually works out, you don't have to constantly tell people that.
    - cbozeman 6y ago
      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P2LTdslZSMw https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P2LTdslZSMw
- swayvil 6y ago
  I dunno man. Slinging an accusation of "bigot" and then censoring his reply (away from all possibility of understanding or argument) ain't too great either.
  - koheripbal 6y ago
    I don't think saying "I'm not surprised people of <certain religion> support murder." is making a substantive comment, even if you DID agree with it. It was just a dumb comment. We should encourage substantive comments - even if we disagree with them. I don't want this place to turn into Reddit with knee-jerk SLAM journalism and low quality comments.
    - swayvil 6y ago
      So what do you want, right speech or free speech? Is there a method that serves both ends?
      - koheripbal 6y ago
        I want adult substantive speech. I'd prefer a censorship mechanism that still allows access to the original comment, but given the system we have, I'm ok with removing that particular comment. Remember that neither extreme is a good place. Allowing link spam, doxxing comments, CP, etc... that isn't correct either. I don't think we've figured out a good solution for this societal problem, but you offering a false choice of "pick and extreme" is not constructive.
        swayvil 6y ago
        It sounds to me like you want right speech. As for the accusation. Just don't.

DyslexicAtheist 6y ago

> Hair-raising sixteenth-century reports emphasize the tests’ control arms and societal benefit. not uncommon in our present that scientists engage in such things. Ethically there is no difference in this to today's psychologists and MD's working on enhanced interrogation techniques. The type of people employed by CCP in Uyghurs camps, ICE facilities, or US black sites (and US prisons) that are routinely used for torture. Compared to what we do today the content in this story is just a side-course to a whole menu of evil. The real shocker is that every one of us is capable[3] of these kind of acts (whether people recognize that ability inside themselves or not) ___ [0] The Role of Medical Professionals in Detention and Interrogation Operations https://detaineetaskforce.org/pdf/Chapter-6_Role-of-Medical-Professionals.pdf https://detaineetaskforce.org/pdf/Chapter-6_Role-of-Medical-... [1] "Enhanced" interrogation of detainees: do psychologists and psychiatrists participate? https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2561033/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2561033/ [2] Mental Health Professionals in the “Enhanced” Interrogation Room https://www.psychiatrictimes.com/view/mental-health-professionals-enhanced-interrogation-room https://www.psychiatrictimes.com/view/mental-health-professi... [3] The Act of Killing https://www.imdb.com/title/tt2375605/ https://www.imdb.com/title/tt2375605/

pessimizer 6y ago
Your third footnote is no good. It's about a Cold War backed military exterminating "communists." While that was a common thing for a large portion of the 20th century, there's no evidence presented in that movie that the characteristics of the mass murderers of penis-stealing witch-communist students are universal.
- DyslexicAtheist 6y ago
  what in your opinion would be a better example of the (rather obvious) point I'm trying to make?
  - throwaway13337 6y ago
    I think you have cause and effect backwards. Deciding the truth and then finding the evidence to support it after we've decided what the truth is happens to be a big problem in our society today. It's not obvious that every person is capable of horrible evil even though there are times and places where it seems that there are many normal people willing to participate.