15 ms·

Building an E-Ink Laptop

348 points by alex-a-soto 6y ago

alex-a-soto 6y ago
Hey folks, I've recently had the idea of building an e-ink laptop from the devices I had at home. I decided to document the process and share each step of the way: Some of the posts planned for the series are: Dasung Paperlike HD-FT teardown, Thinkpad T480 teardown, Creating the prototype, Installing and configuring NixOS, M-x e-ink-laptop-mode If you have any questions or comments, feel free to reach out.
- webmobdev 6y ago
  Seems like a very interesting project - please keep us updated!
- torgoguys 6y ago
  What a coincidence! I just (2 days ago) started planning a somewhat similar project. I'm converting a different model thinkpad, adding an e-ink display. I will be watching this project with great interest for tips, inspiration! Thank you for writing it up.
  - alex-a-soto 6y ago
    Thank you! And I agree, what a coincidence! What Thinkpad and panel are you thinking of using? I look forward to your project as well. Best of luck!
    - smusamashah 6y ago
      Can you have RSS on your blog to follow the next posts?
      - alex-a-soto 6y ago
        https://politepol.com/fd/YzxwhAIhCZer https://politepol.com/fd/YzxwhAIhCZer
    - twiclo 6y ago
      I would also appreciate an RSS feed
      - alex-a-soto 6y ago
        https://politepol.com/fd/YzxwhAIhCZer https://politepol.com/fd/YzxwhAIhCZer
    - torgoguys 6y ago
      I just replied in a Twitter DM with the details. (A DM instead of here for reasons explained in the DM, but basically if it was a week later in time I could post about it here).
- jakecopp 6y ago
  I've been thinking about such a project for a long time (maybe incorporating a raspi & Dactyl mechanical keyboard instead) but never got around to building something (bought an M1 instead haha). Congrats on the build and write up, it looks awesome and I'll be following your posts!
  - alex-a-soto 6y ago
    Thank you! The Raspberry Pi and a Dactyl mechanical keyboard sound like a lovely combination. If you ever decide to go ahead and build it, let me know!
- zepto 6y ago
  Great project - I’ve also thought about this kind of thing. Have you experimented with the Dasung Display much? I tried one and found it too noisy at displaying text. Admittedly it was just connected to a Mac, but it deterred me from keeping hold of it. Also - does ‘M-x e-ink-laptop-mode’ refer to a real thing, or is that a placeholder for something you are going to write?
  - alex-a-soto 6y ago
    Thank you! Yes! I own a Dasung Paperlike Pro and Dasung Paperlike HD-FT. The Paperlike Pro required a driver to change modes/make adjustments. The Dasung Paperlike HD-FT is excellent; you don't have to install any drivers. I've used the monitors for a few years now, and some adjustments need to be made and vary on the operating system used, the fonts/text being one of the settings to change. The M-x e-ink-laptop-mode, was about emacs. I spend most of my time in emacs, and I intend to write an "eink-laptop-mode" that adjusts color, text, makes it more suitable for writing, etc.
    - zepto 6y ago
      > I've used the monitors for a few years now, and some adjustments need to be made and vary on the operating system used, the fonts/text being one of the settings to change. I found the Mac desktop didn’t work particularly well. I was considering trying a text only setup - e.g. Linux with i3, but never got around to it. > The M-x e-ink-laptop-mode, was about emacs. I spend most of my time in emacs, and I intend to write an "eink-laptop-mode" that adjusts color, text, makes it more suitable for writing, etc. That’s what I guessed. I agree e-ink needs software adaptation to get the best out of it.
      - alex-a-soto 6y ago
        I've used the monitors with Manjaro, NixOS, primarily using i3wm, and it has worked well for me. I agree; part of the software problem is the high price tag on the hardware creating a smaller community as a result.
- iamcreasy 6y ago
  Cool project. What's the refresh rate of the screen? Can you scroll down a webpage without a lot of latency?
  - TylerE 6y ago
    It's going to be bad. Like 500ms probably. Scrolling is pretty much worse case. The more of the display you repaint the longer it's going to take. There's also a trade off...getting faster refresh means worse resolution and contrast.
    - hutzlibu 6y ago
      So for lots of UI interactivity like scrolling etc. it might make sense to automatically adjust the resolution and contrast to optimize for speed (so you know roughly where you scrolled at) and then do a proper refresh once it is idle again. But I suppose this is out of the current scope of the project ...
  - alex-a-soto 6y ago
    Thanks, according to arandr, the screen refresh rate is 75hz; when adjusting the modes(M1, M2, M3 etc) it's entirely usable. I've used it for watching videos, meetings and doing my day-to-day activities with it.
- miles 6y ago
  Can you please add an RSS feed for your blog? Would like to subscribe for updates.
  - dbtc 6y ago
    What program do you use for rss subscriptions?
    - miles 6y ago
      NewsBlur[1] for syncing, Reeder[2] for reading and backing up to local OPML file (can also be done via NewsBlur's web app: Preferences > General > "Backup your sites" > "Download OPML"). [1] https://newsblur.com/ https://newsblur.com/ [2] https://reederapp.com/ https://reederapp.com/
    - pbronez 6y ago
      I use Feedbin, which can’t find an RSS on https://alexsoto.dev/index.html https://alexsoto.dev/index.html either
  - alex-a-soto 6y ago
    Thank you for the reminder! Will do!
  - alex-a-soto 6y ago
    https://politepol.com/fd/YzxwhAIhCZer https://politepol.com/fd/YzxwhAIhCZer
- 1MachineElf 6y ago
  Awesome project. I wonder what custom .nix files would be involved with this setup.
- reasonabl_human 6y ago
  Good stuff! I did a screen conversion on a thinkpad t430s which I still have (not Eink, just a better LCD). Do you know of any 16:9 eink displays that take eDP as input? Or anything that would fit in a 14” chassis? Just beginning to get into the eink world so some direction would be super helpful. Would definitely be up for swapping one into my thinkpad.
  - alex-a-soto 6y ago
    Awesome! I did something similar with my Thinkpad X230. I don't yet know of any 16:9 eink displays that take eDP as an input. I'll do some digging/research and let you know.
- acd 6y ago
  Nice project! How is the expirance of reading books online on the device? How long does the battery in the T480 last?
  - alex-a-soto 6y ago
    The reading experience is excellent! It depends a lot on the software that you are using and how it's customized. I mostly use emacs on the day-to-day. Battery life in the range of 10-13 hours, depending on the task.
- mvanbaak 6y ago
  Why nixos? Context: https://hands-on.cloud/why-you-should-never-ever-use-nixos/ https://hands-on.cloud/why-you-should-never-ever-use-nixos/
  - foolmeonce 6y ago
    This is about porting a distribution to hardware. Nixos is really great at bootstrapping/rebuilding a system against your own clone of nixpkgs. The complaints of the article ends with any Linux distribution and docker. I'm not sure which distributions would use docker in their own porting process. Most distributions have a huge distinction between users and maintainers and probably no one who is a target of that article is aware of the pains of maintaining a Linux distribution when they agree traditional distributions are fun.
pickledish 6y ago
Ha, this is a good write-up on a very interesting topic I’ve been thinking about a lot myself recently. The setup I’ve been thinking of putting together is similar, except I’ve been wanting to pair an e-ink monitor with something like a Raspberry Pi 400 (https://www.raspberrypi.org/products/raspberry-pi-400 https://www.raspberrypi.org/products/raspberry-pi-400) for a kind of deliberately-slow, ultra-low-wattage dev and writing environment. End result would be extremely goofy I imagine, but that’s also part of the reason I want to do it! Anyways, excited to see the rest of your posts on the project :)
- alex-a-soto 6y ago
  Thank you for your kind words! The Raspberry Pi 400 is a fantastic computer, and I came close to purchasing one and using it for this project. Sadly, the classic style keyboard of a Thinkpad and a trackpoint won. I love your idea for creating "a deliberately-slow, ultra-low-wattage dev and writing environment." Keep me posted on it! It sounds like it would rock!
  - abdullahkhalids 6y ago
    Lenovo sells the Thinkpad style external usb keyboard. That could be torn down and connected to the Rpi. That was my idea anyway.
    - reirob 6y ago
      Or one from https://tex.com.tw/ https://tex.com.tw/
- AshamedCaptain 6y ago
  The RP400 is all but "deliberality slow, ultra low wattage". It is actually faster and consumes more power than some low-end x86 laptops (Celeron, Atom)!
- _ph_ 6y ago
  The pi-400 seems to be a great match for an eInk display, I would be very interested in any progress you make!
jagger27 6y ago
$1000 for the screen. These E-ink patents can’t expire soon enough.
- myself248 6y ago
  So what I don't get, is there's no shortage of jurisdictions where intellectual property doesn't seem to be worth the paper it's printed on, and really convincing counterfeits flood some well-known markets. Where are the e-ink knockoffs? What sort of enforcement are these folks doing that nobody else seems to be able to?
  - freeqaz 6y ago
    They apparently buy up any competition to keep the market small. There have been other similar tech promised by startups but they buy them up. Pretty interesting! Infuriating too, of course. But the system is what it is. I'm surprised they can't make more money by cross licensing the tech and just granting royalties. I'm no economics expert though.
    - ThrowawayR2 6y ago
      > "They apparently buy up any competition to keep the market small." Which companies / patents did they buy up? I keep seeing this rumor floating around but their Wikipedia article lists exactly one acquisition (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/E_Ink#Acquisition https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/E_Ink#Acquisition) and a casual Google doesn't show any others.
  - derekp7 6y ago
    The truth is that most real consumers (as apposed to us technologists) don't want e-ink technology. It is monochrome, can't do video, limited interactive due to refresh rate and ghosting... the only real thing it has going for it is low power usage. And that pairs well with applications where you spend a long time staring at the screen, and periodically initiating a compute burst to change the screen contents. In other words, e-readers and note-taking devices. And consumers are fairly satisfied with devices that get charged once every day, and can take a 15 minute quick-charge to add multiple hours of additional usage to them.
ggm 6y ago
I accept viewed from the 7billion people problem olpc achieved only millions. None the less, olpc did achieve the scale of millions. It says quite a lot that 3 millions is failure. I guess it depends how your goal is measured. (I never worked on it, no skin in the game)
- FlyMoreRockets 6y ago
  I loved my OLPC, especially the sunlight readable, low power display! Could it easily be grafted onto something like a RasPi, maybe with a mechanical keyboard and trackpad and lots of Li cells?
  - ggm 6y ago
    The word "easily" aside, yes. My reasoning, it was actually talking to an arm RTOS core which was the soft bus to the cpu doing the gui and sugar.
    - FlyMoreRockets 6y ago
      Good point, thanks. The OLPC once was heavily documented, perhaps the relevant portions still exist somewhere.
      - ggm 6y ago
        Searches peter out around 2017/2018 for people trying to do what you want to do. the qanta screen was interesting but it didn't become ubiquitous, so its down to the scavengers who have an olpc and want to hack. Circuit diagrams I think will be easy, block-logic-structure stuff. I did find people who cheated and used X $DISPLAY. I don't think thats quite the goal here :-)
blululu 6y ago
Very cool! I once ran an E-ink display as an external monitor on a laptop to that I could work outside. I recall the latency was pretty much unworkable for typing, but that may have been the way the driver was setup. Curious to hear how usable this is for work - would love to see a video of this thing in use.
jtdaugh 6y ago
I think the right way to bring this to market is a snap-on macbook pro display: https://twitter.com/jtdaugh/status/1348719574481592324?s=20 https://twitter.com/jtdaugh/status/1348719574481592324?s=20
- coldtea 6y ago
  >Imagine if you could do legitimate work for 4 straight hours while sitting in the park. If that work involves scrolling or anything like that, I imagine those "4 straigt hours" having the productivity of 30 minutes in a regular display.
jonnycomputer 6y ago
I wish I had a large e-ink display for coding. I imagine a large screen would be prohibitively expensive, and the latency will be terrible. Too bad. It would be nice for my eyes.
- mlboss 6y ago
  Dasung recently revealed 25 inch eink monitor. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xTok6imfgoM https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xTok6imfgoM
  - tazjin 6y ago
    There was an actual picture of one on /r/eink and the screen surface was glossy. That's certainly curbed my enthusiasm.
- the_only_law 6y ago
  I just want one for reading docs, specs, etc. Yeah the latency could be bad, but I recall reading somewhere that they can reach around 20hz overclocked which can’t be that bad. I’m pretty sure I’ve played games limited to 20fps before.
  - jonnycomputer 6y ago
    Hmm. Perhaps my experience with my nook and kindle are biasing me here. But those are also using the screen as a touch interface, which might be the bigger source of latency. I'd mostly emacs in it, which seems pretty suitable for e-ink displays.
  - waiseristy 6y ago
    Usually you get the OS provided mouse though, running at 30 or 60hz. >20hz mouse movement is oh so horrible
- vicda 6y ago
  I did this. Latency sucks but that didn't matter for text editing. But the drivers sucked and the screen was too small and you want to have a white background text editor just for the eink screen. Switch that to the wrong screen and you're suddenly blinded. Was fun, but I wouldn't recommend it. Making everything dark mode is easier, or keeping screen brightness super low is the easier option.
zwayhowder 6y ago
Great effort. I compromised and bought a Boox e-reader with a 10" screen, it runs Android so pared with a BT keyboard it is quite the productivity machine for when I need to write an essay or similar offline no distraction activities.
suyula 6y ago
Has anybody tried to retrofit a transflector into a laptop LCD screen? I've got no idea if this is even possible but I'd love to be able to just trigger a brightness=0 and see a smartwatch-type display that doesn't strain my eyes.
- jakecopp 6y ago
  A Pebble monitor, that would be wonderful!
- thesuperbigfrog 6y ago
  Reminds me of old-school passive matrix LCD displays (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Passive_matrix_addressing https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Passive_matrix_addressing) on laptops in the 1990s. It is certainly possible, just not a popular demand for most laptops.
- aconbere 6y ago
  This is precisely what the OLPC screen did and it worked really quite beautifully. Sadly doesn’t look like the spin off company producing the displays went anywhere :( https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pixel_Qi https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pixel_Qi
- fy20 6y ago
  I came across a forum post asking about this. As it says you need to remove the polariser layers which is fairly easy (last time I replaced a laptop LCD it fell apart on disassembly and I was presented with many layers of plastic), but OP couldn't find a transreflector layer that was suitable. Without that it's too bright in sunlight, but maybe for indoor use it's good enough. I wonder if something like window tinting films would work (as they are partially reflective depending on the tint level). https://www.instructables.com/community/How-can-I-convert-a-transmissive-to-a-reflective-L/ https://www.instructables.com/community/How-can-I-convert-a-...
  - jacquesm 6y ago
    How about carefully placed strips of retroreflective tape behind the display?
fouc 6y ago
The backlight on the Dasung HD-FT in the picture from the blog post seems to be way too bright, makes it appear to be lower contrast than it probably is.. https://alexsoto.dev/static/building-an-e-ink-laptop/eink-t480.jpg https://alexsoto.dev/static/building-an-e-ink-laptop/eink-t4...
- mssundaram 6y ago
  Even the picture hurts my eyes
- alex-a-soto 6y ago
  Thank you! I'll make sure to include pictures without the backlight on.
davisr 6y ago
You can use Parabola-rM[1] with a reMarkable 1 tablet as an all-in-one solution, and like the T480 can be totally freedom-respecting using only libre software. [1]: http://www.davisr.me/projects/parabola-rm/ http://www.davisr.me/projects/parabola-rm/
- nemoniac 6y ago
  Does it also work with reMarkable 2?
  - davisr 6y ago
    No, only RM1, but TBF no one has tried much low-level stuff with RM2.
est 6y ago
Lenovo had a dual screen botebook with e-ink https://www.engadget.com/lenovo-thinkbook-plus-gen-2-i-e-ink-screen-laptop-170048754.html https://www.engadget.com/lenovo-thinkbook-plus-gen-2-i-e-ink...
- jonathanstrange 6y ago
  Yes, but the e-ink screen was on the wrong side of the device. People like me and the author need an e-ink display for writing in broad sunlight.
  - teleforce 6y ago
    What Lenovo need to do is to make a hybrid version of the ThinkBook Plus and ThinkPad Twist, and rename it as Lenovo BookPad for laptop with a twist-able dual e-ink and conventional monitors [1]. [1]https://www.notebookcheck.net/Review-Lenovo-ThinkPad-Twist-Convertible-Ultrabook.86032.0.html https://www.notebookcheck.net/Review-Lenovo-ThinkPad-Twist-C...
  - vwoolf 6y ago
    Probably not what you are looking for, but this: https://getfreewrite.com https://getfreewrite.com could be good for you.
    - jonathanstrange 6y ago
      Thanks a lot for the link! So this is like a remake of the Alpha Smart but with e-ink screen. Apart from the price it's nice but unfortunately I need one Windows program running on such a device (a specialized Word processor with features no other word processors have).
tyler109 6y ago
would go hand in hand with this project: DIY E-Ink Monitor https://www.reddit.com/r/eink/comments/le6852/diy_eink_monitor/ https://www.reddit.com/r/eink/comments/le6852/diy_eink_monit...
_ph_ 6y ago
As there are now several eReaders on the market which have a 10 inch eInk screen, it would be so great, if there was one which implements displaylink and could just be plugged via USB into any computer. This would immediately enable a lot of usages.
- sammorrowdrums 6y ago
  I have an Onyx Boox Max Lumi, which is a 13.3" and can use it as a USB monitor easily. I believe I just set to monitor mode and plug it in. I find even with its top end refresh rate, it still is hard to get into a good workflow with it, but it is possible.
  - _ph_ 6y ago
    Thanks, that is valuable information. It is quite a bit more expensive than the 10 inch readers, but then it offers a bigger screen. I will certainly give it a lot of consideration.
    - sammorrowdrums 6y ago
      Yes, it comes at quite a premium, but it does run Android, so you can also add custom apps via ADB. And you can read DRM e-books and it has a front-light. I in many ways prefer the ReMarkable, but the Lumi does have a lot of features for different use-cases, like using as external monitor.
CryptoPunk 6y ago
My life would improve dramatically if I could work outside..
clktmr 6y ago
Interestingly this will benefit from terminal apps that were optimized for slow TTY lines, which will require less screen updates.
ChrisRR 6y ago
I would love an e-ink laptop because the screen backlight is one of the biggest battery drains. It'd be interesting to see what the battery life of an e-ink laptop actually is. A laptop with the battery life of a kindle seems like an impossible dream
dukoid 6y ago
Crazy idea: Add some form of laser dot for the mouse pointer...
- alex-a-soto 6y ago
  That's a good idea! Thanks!
awiesenhofer 6y ago
Finally a nice hacking project that doesn't use a Raspberry Pi at its core! Every Pi article on HN has the same comments about how old repurposed laptops or nucs/usffs are better for the current usecase, its nice to actually see a project that takes that to heart.
- alex-a-soto 6y ago
  Thank you! In past attempts, I've used an e-ink monitor with a raspberry pi, Intel Compute Stick, an X230T, etc. I agree; it wasn't until the Raspberry 400 came out that I thought about re-purposing an older laptop.
AussieWog93 6y ago
I haven't used e-ink for a while, but the last one I did had a refresh rate of something like 1Hz. Is this still an issue with modern technology?
- robinsoh 6y ago
  Correct, still about 500ms to get decent levels of separable reproducible grayscale. Claims of 10Hz like Dasung's A2 are often marketing interpretations of unstable 1-bit states. This is a limit of the physics of electrophoresis. To make it faster, they would have to abandon bistability. Some startups have gone that route, eg: ClearInk but they have not yet reached commercial scale.
  - sambroner 6y ago
    What is bistability in this context? Confidence that the ink will rest in 'on' or 'off' configurations? How does that relate to greyscale with multiple configurations and how does ClearInk manage pixel state?
    - robinsoh 6y ago
      Clearink does not rely on the foreground pigment particles coming to "rest" at a fixed position relative to the background pigment, ie: achieving a stable state. Instead they rely on driving the field for as long as the foreground is needed. As soon as it decays, the background pigment instantly rises back to the internally reflecting top plane. This allows the display to achieve much faster speeds since the pigments can be optimized for speed rather than stability.
      - eloisius 6y ago
        From what this description sounds like, the foreground pigment would only remain at the forefront so long as a charge was applied. Doesn't this defeat the energy savings of eInk in that once you have updated the display it doesn't cost anything to hold its image?
gopaz 6y ago
Did you record the difference in battery life before/after the eink monitor?
- alex-a-soto 6y ago
  I need to run more tests; with the eink monitor connected to the T480, I was getting about 8 hours of battery life, could probably optimize settings further. However, I may try instead powering the eink monitor with a power bank.
rambojazz 6y ago
What you didn't say is that Dasung displays cost thousands of dollars. It's just too expensive to play with.
- alex-a-soto 6y ago
  My apologies; I should have stated it in the post. You are correct. My hope with this project is to document the process, share what I learn, and in the future, iterate on this project and make it accessible to more people.
pbronez 6y ago
Very interesting - wasn’t familiar with these e-ink screens. I wonder if the power draw is low enough at you could power the screen and a Rpi4 off a USB battery bank. You could make a rear “shield” that connects to the monitor via VESA. The shield could hold the the Rpi, batteries, and an adjustable kick stand. You’d connect a keyboard via USB. The upcoming Quartz64 [0] mentioned in the article might simplify this, thanks to the included ePD connector. Unfortunately I haven’t been super impressed with my PineBook Pro. Mostly the suspend bug is annoying. Maybe a luggable form factor and e-ink display would help, since there’s no lid to close and the low-draw display can stay on longer without killing the battery. [0] https://www.makeuseof.com/quartz64-e-ink-sbc/ https://www.makeuseof.com/quartz64-e-ink-sbc/
- jpettersson 6y ago
  I had the same thought. Found this after a quick search: https://github.com/tommythorn/Paperlike-Raspberry-Pi-4 https://github.com/tommythorn/Paperlike-Raspberry-Pi-4
chx 6y ago
A very different eInk laptop recently was at https://hackaday.io/project/177716-the-open-source-autarkic-laptop https://hackaday.io/project/177716-the-open-source-autarkic-... Also note my tech EDC/emergency kit at https://imgur.com/a/xmRmYSn https://imgur.com/a/xmRmYSn which also uses a Dasung device, the 7.8" not-eReader as an external monitor to an also 7" laptop. Also note Dasung within the next few months intends to start shipping in China at least a 25.3" eInk monitor.
- alex-a-soto 6y ago
  Amazing project! Thank you for sharing. I will be following for progress/updates. How do you like the 7.8 not-ereader. I've contemplated getting their 103 model.
  - chx 6y ago
    It was love at first sight. Since the Android update it's even better. It does what I want from it: it reads eBooks and becomes a second screen in an emergency. Most of my work is text focused so black-and-white is not a problem here. I know in theory it could do even more but I don't need that. I am reading a lot, I had an eReader with me for more than a decade now always and if it doubles as an emergency monitor, that's insanely valuable to me. I can't really say how good a tablet it is, I have zero interest whatsoever in using it as such.
    - alex-a-soto 6y ago
      Thank you for sharing! I was thinking of getting the 103 for all of the reasons you mentioned, alternating reading ebooks and using it as a second screen. I'm going to add it to my list!
Tepix 6y ago
There used to be Siemens-Fujitsu laptops with transflective displays for working in direct sunlight quite a few years ago. They were extremely expensive. I had a search running on eBay for several years but not a single unit turned up. They must be woefully outdated by now.
a-saleh 6y ago
I did try to hack something simmilar to this by the way of Onyx Boox e-reader running Android and supporting my bluetooth keyboard and it was more of a novelty than anything else :D But it was fun to write in direct sunlight, in just a slightly less of a hipster fashion than using i.e. https://getfreewrite.com/ https://getfreewrite.com/ :D
alexcg1 6y ago
I've been thinking of something similar: a super lightweight (n)vim machine using Raspberry Pi (originally RaspPi Zero but performance went through the floor with my number of vim plugins, so likely a beefier one). I think the lack of syntax highlighting is going to be the major hindrance for me moving forwards.
alex-a-soto 6y ago
Follow-up post: Dasung Paperlike HD-FT Teardown https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26270995#26271790 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26270995#26271790

348 points by alex-a-soto 6y ago

Hey folks, I've recently had the idea of building an e-ink laptop from the devices I had at home. I decided to document the process and share each step of the way: Some of the posts planned for the series are: Dasung Paperlike HD-FT teardown, Thinkpad T480 teardown, Creating the prototype, Installing and configuring NixOS, M-x e-ink-laptop-mode If you have any questions or comments, feel free to reach out.

webmobdev 6y ago
Seems like a very interesting project - please keep us updated!
torgoguys 6y ago
What a coincidence! I just (2 days ago) started planning a somewhat similar project. I'm converting a different model thinkpad, adding an e-ink display. I will be watching this project with great interest for tips, inspiration! Thank you for writing it up.
- alex-a-soto 6y ago
  Thank you! And I agree, what a coincidence! What Thinkpad and panel are you thinking of using? I look forward to your project as well. Best of luck!
  - smusamashah 6y ago
    Can you have RSS on your blog to follow the next posts?
    - alex-a-soto 6y ago
      https://politepol.com/fd/YzxwhAIhCZer https://politepol.com/fd/YzxwhAIhCZer
  - twiclo 6y ago
    I would also appreciate an RSS feed
    - alex-a-soto 6y ago
      https://politepol.com/fd/YzxwhAIhCZer https://politepol.com/fd/YzxwhAIhCZer
  - torgoguys 6y ago
    I just replied in a Twitter DM with the details. (A DM instead of here for reasons explained in the DM, but basically if it was a week later in time I could post about it here).
jakecopp 6y ago
I've been thinking about such a project for a long time (maybe incorporating a raspi & Dactyl mechanical keyboard instead) but never got around to building something (bought an M1 instead haha). Congrats on the build and write up, it looks awesome and I'll be following your posts!
- alex-a-soto 6y ago
  Thank you! The Raspberry Pi and a Dactyl mechanical keyboard sound like a lovely combination. If you ever decide to go ahead and build it, let me know!
zepto 6y ago
Great project - I’ve also thought about this kind of thing. Have you experimented with the Dasung Display much? I tried one and found it too noisy at displaying text. Admittedly it was just connected to a Mac, but it deterred me from keeping hold of it. Also - does ‘M-x e-ink-laptop-mode’ refer to a real thing, or is that a placeholder for something you are going to write?
- alex-a-soto 6y ago
  Thank you! Yes! I own a Dasung Paperlike Pro and Dasung Paperlike HD-FT. The Paperlike Pro required a driver to change modes/make adjustments. The Dasung Paperlike HD-FT is excellent; you don't have to install any drivers. I've used the monitors for a few years now, and some adjustments need to be made and vary on the operating system used, the fonts/text being one of the settings to change. The M-x e-ink-laptop-mode, was about emacs. I spend most of my time in emacs, and I intend to write an "eink-laptop-mode" that adjusts color, text, makes it more suitable for writing, etc.
  - zepto 6y ago
    > I've used the monitors for a few years now, and some adjustments need to be made and vary on the operating system used, the fonts/text being one of the settings to change. I found the Mac desktop didn’t work particularly well. I was considering trying a text only setup - e.g. Linux with i3, but never got around to it. > The M-x e-ink-laptop-mode, was about emacs. I spend most of my time in emacs, and I intend to write an "eink-laptop-mode" that adjusts color, text, makes it more suitable for writing, etc. That’s what I guessed. I agree e-ink needs software adaptation to get the best out of it.
    - alex-a-soto 6y ago
      I've used the monitors with Manjaro, NixOS, primarily using i3wm, and it has worked well for me. I agree; part of the software problem is the high price tag on the hardware creating a smaller community as a result.
iamcreasy 6y ago
Cool project. What's the refresh rate of the screen? Can you scroll down a webpage without a lot of latency?
- TylerE 6y ago
  It's going to be bad. Like 500ms probably. Scrolling is pretty much worse case. The more of the display you repaint the longer it's going to take. There's also a trade off...getting faster refresh means worse resolution and contrast.
  - hutzlibu 6y ago
    So for lots of UI interactivity like scrolling etc. it might make sense to automatically adjust the resolution and contrast to optimize for speed (so you know roughly where you scrolled at) and then do a proper refresh once it is idle again. But I suppose this is out of the current scope of the project ...
- alex-a-soto 6y ago
  Thanks, according to arandr, the screen refresh rate is 75hz; when adjusting the modes(M1, M2, M3 etc) it's entirely usable. I've used it for watching videos, meetings and doing my day-to-day activities with it.
miles 6y ago
Can you please add an RSS feed for your blog? Would like to subscribe for updates.
- dbtc 6y ago
  What program do you use for rss subscriptions?
  - miles 6y ago
    NewsBlur[1] for syncing, Reeder[2] for reading and backing up to local OPML file (can also be done via NewsBlur's web app: Preferences > General > "Backup your sites" > "Download OPML"). [1] https://newsblur.com/ https://newsblur.com/ [2] https://reederapp.com/ https://reederapp.com/
  - pbronez 6y ago
    I use Feedbin, which can’t find an RSS on https://alexsoto.dev/index.html https://alexsoto.dev/index.html either
- alex-a-soto 6y ago
  Thank you for the reminder! Will do!
- alex-a-soto 6y ago
  https://politepol.com/fd/YzxwhAIhCZer https://politepol.com/fd/YzxwhAIhCZer
1MachineElf 6y ago
Awesome project. I wonder what custom .nix files would be involved with this setup.
reasonabl_human 6y ago
Good stuff! I did a screen conversion on a thinkpad t430s which I still have (not Eink, just a better LCD). Do you know of any 16:9 eink displays that take eDP as input? Or anything that would fit in a 14” chassis? Just beginning to get into the eink world so some direction would be super helpful. Would definitely be up for swapping one into my thinkpad.
- alex-a-soto 6y ago
  Awesome! I did something similar with my Thinkpad X230. I don't yet know of any 16:9 eink displays that take eDP as an input. I'll do some digging/research and let you know.
acd 6y ago
Nice project! How is the expirance of reading books online on the device? How long does the battery in the T480 last?
- alex-a-soto 6y ago
  The reading experience is excellent! It depends a lot on the software that you are using and how it's customized. I mostly use emacs on the day-to-day. Battery life in the range of 10-13 hours, depending on the task.
mvanbaak 6y ago
Why nixos? Context: https://hands-on.cloud/why-you-should-never-ever-use-nixos/ https://hands-on.cloud/why-you-should-never-ever-use-nixos/
- foolmeonce 6y ago
  This is about porting a distribution to hardware. Nixos is really great at bootstrapping/rebuilding a system against your own clone of nixpkgs. The complaints of the article ends with any Linux distribution and docker. I'm not sure which distributions would use docker in their own porting process. Most distributions have a huge distinction between users and maintainers and probably no one who is a target of that article is aware of the pains of maintaining a Linux distribution when they agree traditional distributions are fun.

pickledish 6y ago

Ha, this is a good write-up on a very interesting topic I’ve been thinking about a lot myself recently. The setup I’ve been thinking of putting together is similar, except I’ve been wanting to pair an e-ink monitor with something like a Raspberry Pi 400 (https://www.raspberrypi.org/products/raspberry-pi-400 https://www.raspberrypi.org/products/raspberry-pi-400) for a kind of deliberately-slow, ultra-low-wattage dev and writing environment. End result would be extremely goofy I imagine, but that’s also part of the reason I want to do it! Anyways, excited to see the rest of your posts on the project :)

alex-a-soto 6y ago
Thank you for your kind words! The Raspberry Pi 400 is a fantastic computer, and I came close to purchasing one and using it for this project. Sadly, the classic style keyboard of a Thinkpad and a trackpoint won. I love your idea for creating "a deliberately-slow, ultra-low-wattage dev and writing environment." Keep me posted on it! It sounds like it would rock!
- abdullahkhalids 6y ago
  Lenovo sells the Thinkpad style external usb keyboard. That could be torn down and connected to the Rpi. That was my idea anyway.
  - reirob 6y ago
    Or one from https://tex.com.tw/ https://tex.com.tw/
AshamedCaptain 6y ago
The RP400 is all but "deliberality slow, ultra low wattage". It is actually faster and consumes more power than some low-end x86 laptops (Celeron, Atom)!
_ph_ 6y ago
The pi-400 seems to be a great match for an eInk display, I would be very interested in any progress you make!

jagger27 6y ago

$1000 for the screen. These E-ink patents can’t expire soon enough.

myself248 6y ago
So what I don't get, is there's no shortage of jurisdictions where intellectual property doesn't seem to be worth the paper it's printed on, and really convincing counterfeits flood some well-known markets. Where are the e-ink knockoffs? What sort of enforcement are these folks doing that nobody else seems to be able to?
- freeqaz 6y ago
  They apparently buy up any competition to keep the market small. There have been other similar tech promised by startups but they buy them up. Pretty interesting! Infuriating too, of course. But the system is what it is. I'm surprised they can't make more money by cross licensing the tech and just granting royalties. I'm no economics expert though.
  - ThrowawayR2 6y ago
    > "They apparently buy up any competition to keep the market small." Which companies / patents did they buy up? I keep seeing this rumor floating around but their Wikipedia article lists exactly one acquisition (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/E_Ink#Acquisition https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/E_Ink#Acquisition) and a casual Google doesn't show any others.
- derekp7 6y ago
  The truth is that most real consumers (as apposed to us technologists) don't want e-ink technology. It is monochrome, can't do video, limited interactive due to refresh rate and ghosting... the only real thing it has going for it is low power usage. And that pairs well with applications where you spend a long time staring at the screen, and periodically initiating a compute burst to change the screen contents. In other words, e-readers and note-taking devices. And consumers are fairly satisfied with devices that get charged once every day, and can take a 15 minute quick-charge to add multiple hours of additional usage to them.

ggm 6y ago

I accept viewed from the 7billion people problem olpc achieved only millions. None the less, olpc did achieve the scale of millions. It says quite a lot that 3 millions is failure. I guess it depends how your goal is measured. (I never worked on it, no skin in the game)

FlyMoreRockets 6y ago
I loved my OLPC, especially the sunlight readable, low power display! Could it easily be grafted onto something like a RasPi, maybe with a mechanical keyboard and trackpad and lots of Li cells?
- ggm 6y ago
  The word "easily" aside, yes. My reasoning, it was actually talking to an arm RTOS core which was the soft bus to the cpu doing the gui and sugar.
  - FlyMoreRockets 6y ago
    Good point, thanks. The OLPC once was heavily documented, perhaps the relevant portions still exist somewhere.
    - ggm 6y ago
      Searches peter out around 2017/2018 for people trying to do what you want to do. the qanta screen was interesting but it didn't become ubiquitous, so its down to the scavengers who have an olpc and want to hack. Circuit diagrams I think will be easy, block-logic-structure stuff. I did find people who cheated and used X $DISPLAY. I don't think thats quite the goal here :-)

blululu 6y ago

Very cool! I once ran an E-ink display as an external monitor on a laptop to that I could work outside. I recall the latency was pretty much unworkable for typing, but that may have been the way the driver was setup. Curious to hear how usable this is for work - would love to see a video of this thing in use.

jtdaugh 6y ago

I think the right way to bring this to market is a snap-on macbook pro display: https://twitter.com/jtdaugh/status/1348719574481592324?s=20 https://twitter.com/jtdaugh/status/1348719574481592324?s=20

coldtea 6y ago
>Imagine if you could do legitimate work for 4 straight hours while sitting in the park. If that work involves scrolling or anything like that, I imagine those "4 straigt hours" having the productivity of 30 minutes in a regular display.

jonnycomputer 6y ago

I wish I had a large e-ink display for coding. I imagine a large screen would be prohibitively expensive, and the latency will be terrible. Too bad. It would be nice for my eyes.

mlboss 6y ago
Dasung recently revealed 25 inch eink monitor. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xTok6imfgoM https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xTok6imfgoM
- tazjin 6y ago
  There was an actual picture of one on /r/eink and the screen surface was glossy. That's certainly curbed my enthusiasm.
the_only_law 6y ago
I just want one for reading docs, specs, etc. Yeah the latency could be bad, but I recall reading somewhere that they can reach around 20hz overclocked which can’t be that bad. I’m pretty sure I’ve played games limited to 20fps before.
- jonnycomputer 6y ago
  Hmm. Perhaps my experience with my nook and kindle are biasing me here. But those are also using the screen as a touch interface, which might be the bigger source of latency. I'd mostly emacs in it, which seems pretty suitable for e-ink displays.
- waiseristy 6y ago
  Usually you get the OS provided mouse though, running at 30 or 60hz. >20hz mouse movement is oh so horrible
vicda 6y ago
I did this. Latency sucks but that didn't matter for text editing. But the drivers sucked and the screen was too small and you want to have a white background text editor just for the eink screen. Switch that to the wrong screen and you're suddenly blinded. Was fun, but I wouldn't recommend it. Making everything dark mode is easier, or keeping screen brightness super low is the easier option.

zwayhowder 6y ago

Great effort. I compromised and bought a Boox e-reader with a 10" screen, it runs Android so pared with a BT keyboard it is quite the productivity machine for when I need to write an essay or similar offline no distraction activities.

suyula 6y ago

Has anybody tried to retrofit a transflector into a laptop LCD screen? I've got no idea if this is even possible but I'd love to be able to just trigger a brightness=0 and see a smartwatch-type display that doesn't strain my eyes.

jakecopp 6y ago
A Pebble monitor, that would be wonderful!
thesuperbigfrog 6y ago
Reminds me of old-school passive matrix LCD displays (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Passive_matrix_addressing https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Passive_matrix_addressing) on laptops in the 1990s. It is certainly possible, just not a popular demand for most laptops.
aconbere 6y ago
This is precisely what the OLPC screen did and it worked really quite beautifully. Sadly doesn’t look like the spin off company producing the displays went anywhere :( https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pixel_Qi https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pixel_Qi
fy20 6y ago
I came across a forum post asking about this. As it says you need to remove the polariser layers which is fairly easy (last time I replaced a laptop LCD it fell apart on disassembly and I was presented with many layers of plastic), but OP couldn't find a transreflector layer that was suitable. Without that it's too bright in sunlight, but maybe for indoor use it's good enough. I wonder if something like window tinting films would work (as they are partially reflective depending on the tint level). https://www.instructables.com/community/How-can-I-convert-a-transmissive-to-a-reflective-L/ https://www.instructables.com/community/How-can-I-convert-a-...
- jacquesm 6y ago
  How about carefully placed strips of retroreflective tape behind the display?

fouc 6y ago

The backlight on the Dasung HD-FT in the picture from the blog post seems to be way too bright, makes it appear to be lower contrast than it probably is.. https://alexsoto.dev/static/building-an-e-ink-laptop/eink-t480.jpg https://alexsoto.dev/static/building-an-e-ink-laptop/eink-t4...

mssundaram 6y ago
Even the picture hurts my eyes
alex-a-soto 6y ago
Thank you! I'll make sure to include pictures without the backlight on.

davisr 6y ago

You can use Parabola-rM[1] with a reMarkable 1 tablet as an all-in-one solution, and like the T480 can be totally freedom-respecting using only libre software. [1]: http://www.davisr.me/projects/parabola-rm/ http://www.davisr.me/projects/parabola-rm/

nemoniac 6y ago
Does it also work with reMarkable 2?
- davisr 6y ago
  No, only RM1, but TBF no one has tried much low-level stuff with RM2.

est 6y ago

Lenovo had a dual screen botebook with e-ink https://www.engadget.com/lenovo-thinkbook-plus-gen-2-i-e-ink-screen-laptop-170048754.html https://www.engadget.com/lenovo-thinkbook-plus-gen-2-i-e-ink...

jonathanstrange 6y ago
Yes, but the e-ink screen was on the wrong side of the device. People like me and the author need an e-ink display for writing in broad sunlight.
- teleforce 6y ago
  What Lenovo need to do is to make a hybrid version of the ThinkBook Plus and ThinkPad Twist, and rename it as Lenovo BookPad for laptop with a twist-able dual e-ink and conventional monitors [1]. [1]https://www.notebookcheck.net/Review-Lenovo-ThinkPad-Twist-Convertible-Ultrabook.86032.0.html https://www.notebookcheck.net/Review-Lenovo-ThinkPad-Twist-C...
- vwoolf 6y ago
  Probably not what you are looking for, but this: https://getfreewrite.com https://getfreewrite.com could be good for you.
  - jonathanstrange 6y ago
    Thanks a lot for the link! So this is like a remake of the Alpha Smart but with e-ink screen. Apart from the price it's nice but unfortunately I need one Windows program running on such a device (a specialized Word processor with features no other word processors have).

tyler109 6y ago

would go hand in hand with this project: DIY E-Ink Monitor https://www.reddit.com/r/eink/comments/le6852/diy_eink_monitor/ https://www.reddit.com/r/eink/comments/le6852/diy_eink_monit...

_ph_ 6y ago

As there are now several eReaders on the market which have a 10 inch eInk screen, it would be so great, if there was one which implements displaylink and could just be plugged via USB into any computer. This would immediately enable a lot of usages.

sammorrowdrums 6y ago
I have an Onyx Boox Max Lumi, which is a 13.3" and can use it as a USB monitor easily. I believe I just set to monitor mode and plug it in. I find even with its top end refresh rate, it still is hard to get into a good workflow with it, but it is possible.
- _ph_ 6y ago
  Thanks, that is valuable information. It is quite a bit more expensive than the 10 inch readers, but then it offers a bigger screen. I will certainly give it a lot of consideration.
  - sammorrowdrums 6y ago
    Yes, it comes at quite a premium, but it does run Android, so you can also add custom apps via ADB. And you can read DRM e-books and it has a front-light. I in many ways prefer the ReMarkable, but the Lumi does have a lot of features for different use-cases, like using as external monitor.

CryptoPunk 6y ago

My life would improve dramatically if I could work outside..

clktmr 6y ago

Interestingly this will benefit from terminal apps that were optimized for slow TTY lines, which will require less screen updates.

ChrisRR 6y ago

I would love an e-ink laptop because the screen backlight is one of the biggest battery drains. It'd be interesting to see what the battery life of an e-ink laptop actually is. A laptop with the battery life of a kindle seems like an impossible dream

dukoid 6y ago

Crazy idea: Add some form of laser dot for the mouse pointer...

alex-a-soto 6y ago
That's a good idea! Thanks!

awiesenhofer 6y ago

Finally a nice hacking project that doesn't use a Raspberry Pi at its core! Every Pi article on HN has the same comments about how old repurposed laptops or nucs/usffs are better for the current usecase, its nice to actually see a project that takes that to heart.

alex-a-soto 6y ago
Thank you! In past attempts, I've used an e-ink monitor with a raspberry pi, Intel Compute Stick, an X230T, etc. I agree; it wasn't until the Raspberry 400 came out that I thought about re-purposing an older laptop.

AussieWog93 6y ago

I haven't used e-ink for a while, but the last one I did had a refresh rate of something like 1Hz. Is this still an issue with modern technology?

robinsoh 6y ago
Correct, still about 500ms to get decent levels of separable reproducible grayscale. Claims of 10Hz like Dasung's A2 are often marketing interpretations of unstable 1-bit states. This is a limit of the physics of electrophoresis. To make it faster, they would have to abandon bistability. Some startups have gone that route, eg: ClearInk but they have not yet reached commercial scale.
- sambroner 6y ago
  What is bistability in this context? Confidence that the ink will rest in 'on' or 'off' configurations? How does that relate to greyscale with multiple configurations and how does ClearInk manage pixel state?
  - robinsoh 6y ago
    Clearink does not rely on the foreground pigment particles coming to "rest" at a fixed position relative to the background pigment, ie: achieving a stable state. Instead they rely on driving the field for as long as the foreground is needed. As soon as it decays, the background pigment instantly rises back to the internally reflecting top plane. This allows the display to achieve much faster speeds since the pigments can be optimized for speed rather than stability.
    - eloisius 6y ago
      From what this description sounds like, the foreground pigment would only remain at the forefront so long as a charge was applied. Doesn't this defeat the energy savings of eInk in that once you have updated the display it doesn't cost anything to hold its image?

gopaz 6y ago

Did you record the difference in battery life before/after the eink monitor?

alex-a-soto 6y ago
I need to run more tests; with the eink monitor connected to the T480, I was getting about 8 hours of battery life, could probably optimize settings further. However, I may try instead powering the eink monitor with a power bank.

rambojazz 6y ago

What you didn't say is that Dasung displays cost thousands of dollars. It's just too expensive to play with.

alex-a-soto 6y ago
My apologies; I should have stated it in the post. You are correct. My hope with this project is to document the process, share what I learn, and in the future, iterate on this project and make it accessible to more people.

pbronez 6y ago

Very interesting - wasn’t familiar with these e-ink screens. I wonder if the power draw is low enough at you could power the screen and a Rpi4 off a USB battery bank. You could make a rear “shield” that connects to the monitor via VESA. The shield could hold the the Rpi, batteries, and an adjustable kick stand. You’d connect a keyboard via USB. The upcoming Quartz64 [0] mentioned in the article might simplify this, thanks to the included ePD connector. Unfortunately I haven’t been super impressed with my PineBook Pro. Mostly the suspend bug is annoying. Maybe a luggable form factor and e-ink display would help, since there’s no lid to close and the low-draw display can stay on longer without killing the battery. [0] https://www.makeuseof.com/quartz64-e-ink-sbc/ https://www.makeuseof.com/quartz64-e-ink-sbc/

jpettersson 6y ago
I had the same thought. Found this after a quick search: https://github.com/tommythorn/Paperlike-Raspberry-Pi-4 https://github.com/tommythorn/Paperlike-Raspberry-Pi-4

chx 6y ago

A very different eInk laptop recently was at https://hackaday.io/project/177716-the-open-source-autarkic-laptop https://hackaday.io/project/177716-the-open-source-autarkic-... Also note my tech EDC/emergency kit at https://imgur.com/a/xmRmYSn https://imgur.com/a/xmRmYSn which also uses a Dasung device, the 7.8" not-eReader as an external monitor to an also 7" laptop. Also note Dasung within the next few months intends to start shipping in China at least a 25.3" eInk monitor.

alex-a-soto 6y ago
Amazing project! Thank you for sharing. I will be following for progress/updates. How do you like the 7.8 not-ereader. I've contemplated getting their 103 model.
- chx 6y ago
  It was love at first sight. Since the Android update it's even better. It does what I want from it: it reads eBooks and becomes a second screen in an emergency. Most of my work is text focused so black-and-white is not a problem here. I know in theory it could do even more but I don't need that. I am reading a lot, I had an eReader with me for more than a decade now always and if it doubles as an emergency monitor, that's insanely valuable to me. I can't really say how good a tablet it is, I have zero interest whatsoever in using it as such.
  - alex-a-soto 6y ago
    Thank you for sharing! I was thinking of getting the 103 for all of the reasons you mentioned, alternating reading ebooks and using it as a second screen. I'm going to add it to my list!

Tepix 6y ago

There used to be Siemens-Fujitsu laptops with transflective displays for working in direct sunlight quite a few years ago. They were extremely expensive. I had a search running on eBay for several years but not a single unit turned up. They must be woefully outdated by now.

a-saleh 6y ago

I did try to hack something simmilar to this by the way of Onyx Boox e-reader running Android and supporting my bluetooth keyboard and it was more of a novelty than anything else :D But it was fun to write in direct sunlight, in just a slightly less of a hipster fashion than using i.e. https://getfreewrite.com/ https://getfreewrite.com/ :D

alexcg1 6y ago

I've been thinking of something similar: a super lightweight (n)vim machine using Raspberry Pi (originally RaspPi Zero but performance went through the floor with my number of vim plugins, so likely a beefier one). I think the lack of syntax highlighting is going to be the major hindrance for me moving forwards.

alex-a-soto 6y ago

Follow-up post: Dasung Paperlike HD-FT Teardown https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26270995#26271790 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26270995#26271790