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Classic. People like floating rates when rates are low. News at 10. It will be interesting to see how the courts treat this. She’s suing over price gouging, wh

Classic. People like floating rates when rates are low. News at 10. It will be interesting to see how the courts treat this. She’s suing over price gouging, which is a grey area anyway, but seems very difficult to prove when the grid was on the verge of collapse. Power prices are volatile because it’s (for all intents and purposes) an immediately perishable good.

munk-a 6y ago
I wonder how much money she saved on an average bill - 10k is a lot of money, but if she's been getting advantageous rates for years and years this might not even put her into the red overall.
- qeternity 6y ago
  She won’t see it this way and neither will the pitchfork equipped public. Even if it puts her in the red, I hope the courts don’t succumb to the populism.
- DavidPeiffer 6y ago
  "...if she's been getting advantageous rates for years and years this might not even put her into the red overall." I agree on a whole, but this doesn't align with the day to day reality for many people with these huge bills. With a large percent of the country unable to pay an unexpected $400 bill and living paycheck to paycheck, they won't have the long-term net savings there ready for a time like this. Instead they're in a sudden financial bind roughly equivalent to crashing a car and having it not covered by insurance. People are really bad at understanding low probability events. People had never seen prices in that realm before. Multiply the two, and here we are.
  - munk-a 6y ago
    This is pretty much precisely why I'm socialist leaning - it's much easier to force regular savings in the government than to expect people to independently manage their finances in a responsible manner. And everyone from the poorest to the richest is occasionally bankrupted by a sudden unexpected hurricane. I understand the red scare left people thinking that any kind of socialism will instantly turn into bread lines but I think that allowing more government oversight to make sure those who are left shafted by the tribulations of life get some assistance is the only real ethical choice.
- gruez 6y ago
  https://web.archive.org/web/20201201084406/https://www.griddy.com/ https://web.archive.org/web/20201201084406/https://www.gridd... they claim an average savings of around $600 per year. So if this is a once-every-16-years event then she'll come out on top, on average.
93po 6y ago
I cannot believe you're blaming someone for not reading the million pages of fine print and not completely understanding the ramifications of a situation where your power is shut off for days with freezing temperatures, no water, no heat, sometimes no gas, and risking thousands of dollars of damage to your home with freezing pipes. Please have compassion. I need to take a break from this site, these comments make me sick sometimes
- qeternity 6y ago
  It’s literally the point of Griddy. It’s not the fine print. It’s the whole damn product. She was happy to take lower rates 99.9% of the time. She can’t cry foul the 0.1% of the time when the trade goes against her.
  - hellomyguys 6y ago
    >She can’t cry foul the 0.1% of the time when the trade goes against her. If you're a person completely devoid of empathy, yes that is a fine perspective. We all know what happened here is that Texas politicians deregulated the power system in a way that allowed for people to be taken advantage of. Your ire shouldn't go towards this woman who is probably doing this as a last resort, but to the politicians who sold out a public utility and any investment in the electric grid for the public good so a few people could profit.
    - qeternity 6y ago
      Griddy has 29k customers. There are millions of other Texans paying higher fixed rates who did not get screwed here. This is not about deregulation. This is about someone taking a risk that didn’t work out, and trying to get a court to fix it for her.
      - gizmo686 6y ago
        The deregulation is allowing the retail consumers direct access to the wholesale market. The product that Griddy was selling is not something that should be legal to sell to normal consumers.
elihu 6y ago
Griddy's take according to the article is that the per-kilowatt-hour price was set arbitrarily by a political appointee. If the price were set by real-time auctions, that would be one thing, but if someone arbitrarily sets the price at $9 per kilowatt hour, it's not unreasonable that some people are going to be very angry about it.
- sandworm101 6y ago
  Auctions would only make sense if those buying the power participated. If i knew that turning on my computer would cost 100/hour i would keep it off. But if i have no idea what the current market price actually is, i cannot make a rational choice. These people had no idea what they were buying until the bill came in the mail/email. This is precicely the sort of area for consumer protection laws.
  - gruez 6y ago
    > But if i have no idea what the current market price actually is, i cannot make a rational choice. It doesn't seem that hard to make an IOT electricity price display.
    - saghm 6y ago
      If you decided not to pay for the power when you saw the price was high, wouldn't it turn off? How would you know when the price was low enough to turn back on?
      - gruez 6y ago
        batteries? amazon used to sell kindles with 3g connection, which had battery life of "up to 8 weeks". It's not too hard to imagine a similar device with battery life of a week at least. text alerts would also work.
        shalmanese 6y ago
        What happens if the cell towers are down? As can often happen during a power emergency.
gizmo686 6y ago
I don't see the grey area in this particular suit. Texas law clearly allows selling electricity at a price of $9/KWh: > (B) The high system-wide offer cap (HCAP) will be $9,000 per MWh and $9,000 per MW per hour. [0] Thanks to the article for linking the order [1] which in turn cited the specific law. Also, it points out that the law actually allowed for an even higher price, as the "low system-wide offer cap" turned out to be greater than the "high system-wide offer cap". The public utility commission therefore elected to grant an exemption to allow continued use of the (cheaper) high system-wide offer cap. If you, somehow, get past the fact that this price is literally and explicitly anticipated, allowed, and set by Texas law; and you assume that someone is guilty of price gouging, then you have an interesting question of what liability Griddy has. [0] http://txrules.elaws.us/rule/title16_chapter25_sec.25.505 http://txrules.elaws.us/rule/title16_chapter25_sec.25.505 [] http://www.puc.texas.gov/51617WinterERCOTOrder.pdf http://www.puc.texas.gov/51617WinterERCOTOrder.pdf
- qeternity 6y ago
  I mean price gouging is a grey area of law. It’s dependent on there being an emergency and then the prickly question of what price is illegal vs just responding to supply/demand. But I agree with you. This is going to be interesting. It should get dismissed but I have a feeling it won’t and that an overzealous judge will want to make a point about ERCOT.

munk-a 6y ago

I wonder how much money she saved on an average bill - 10k is a lot of money, but if she's been getting advantageous rates for years and years this might not even put her into the red overall.

qeternity 6y ago
She won’t see it this way and neither will the pitchfork equipped public. Even if it puts her in the red, I hope the courts don’t succumb to the populism.
DavidPeiffer 6y ago
"...if she's been getting advantageous rates for years and years this might not even put her into the red overall." I agree on a whole, but this doesn't align with the day to day reality for many people with these huge bills. With a large percent of the country unable to pay an unexpected $400 bill and living paycheck to paycheck, they won't have the long-term net savings there ready for a time like this. Instead they're in a sudden financial bind roughly equivalent to crashing a car and having it not covered by insurance. People are really bad at understanding low probability events. People had never seen prices in that realm before. Multiply the two, and here we are.
- munk-a 6y ago
  This is pretty much precisely why I'm socialist leaning - it's much easier to force regular savings in the government than to expect people to independently manage their finances in a responsible manner. And everyone from the poorest to the richest is occasionally bankrupted by a sudden unexpected hurricane. I understand the red scare left people thinking that any kind of socialism will instantly turn into bread lines but I think that allowing more government oversight to make sure those who are left shafted by the tribulations of life get some assistance is the only real ethical choice.
gruez 6y ago
https://web.archive.org/web/20201201084406/https://www.griddy.com/ https://web.archive.org/web/20201201084406/https://www.gridd... they claim an average savings of around $600 per year. So if this is a once-every-16-years event then she'll come out on top, on average.

93po 6y ago

I cannot believe you're blaming someone for not reading the million pages of fine print and not completely understanding the ramifications of a situation where your power is shut off for days with freezing temperatures, no water, no heat, sometimes no gas, and risking thousands of dollars of damage to your home with freezing pipes. Please have compassion. I need to take a break from this site, these comments make me sick sometimes

qeternity 6y ago
It’s literally the point of Griddy. It’s not the fine print. It’s the whole damn product. She was happy to take lower rates 99.9% of the time. She can’t cry foul the 0.1% of the time when the trade goes against her.
- hellomyguys 6y ago
  >She can’t cry foul the 0.1% of the time when the trade goes against her. If you're a person completely devoid of empathy, yes that is a fine perspective. We all know what happened here is that Texas politicians deregulated the power system in a way that allowed for people to be taken advantage of. Your ire shouldn't go towards this woman who is probably doing this as a last resort, but to the politicians who sold out a public utility and any investment in the electric grid for the public good so a few people could profit.
  - qeternity 6y ago
    Griddy has 29k customers. There are millions of other Texans paying higher fixed rates who did not get screwed here. This is not about deregulation. This is about someone taking a risk that didn’t work out, and trying to get a court to fix it for her.
    - gizmo686 6y ago
      The deregulation is allowing the retail consumers direct access to the wholesale market. The product that Griddy was selling is not something that should be legal to sell to normal consumers.

elihu 6y ago

Griddy's take according to the article is that the per-kilowatt-hour price was set arbitrarily by a political appointee. If the price were set by real-time auctions, that would be one thing, but if someone arbitrarily sets the price at $9 per kilowatt hour, it's not unreasonable that some people are going to be very angry about it.

sandworm101 6y ago
Auctions would only make sense if those buying the power participated. If i knew that turning on my computer would cost 100/hour i would keep it off. But if i have no idea what the current market price actually is, i cannot make a rational choice. These people had no idea what they were buying until the bill came in the mail/email. This is precicely the sort of area for consumer protection laws.
- gruez 6y ago
  > But if i have no idea what the current market price actually is, i cannot make a rational choice. It doesn't seem that hard to make an IOT electricity price display.
  - saghm 6y ago
    If you decided not to pay for the power when you saw the price was high, wouldn't it turn off? How would you know when the price was low enough to turn back on?
    - gruez 6y ago
      batteries? amazon used to sell kindles with 3g connection, which had battery life of "up to 8 weeks". It's not too hard to imagine a similar device with battery life of a week at least. text alerts would also work.
      - shalmanese 6y ago
        What happens if the cell towers are down? As can often happen during a power emergency.

gizmo686 6y ago

I don't see the grey area in this particular suit. Texas law clearly allows selling electricity at a price of $9/KWh: > (B) The high system-wide offer cap (HCAP) will be $9,000 per MWh and $9,000 per MW per hour. [0] Thanks to the article for linking the order [1] which in turn cited the specific law. Also, it points out that the law actually allowed for an even higher price, as the "low system-wide offer cap" turned out to be greater than the "high system-wide offer cap". The public utility commission therefore elected to grant an exemption to allow continued use of the (cheaper) high system-wide offer cap. If you, somehow, get past the fact that this price is literally and explicitly anticipated, allowed, and set by Texas law; and you assume that someone is guilty of price gouging, then you have an interesting question of what liability Griddy has. [0] http://txrules.elaws.us/rule/title16_chapter25_sec.25.505 http://txrules.elaws.us/rule/title16_chapter25_sec.25.505 [] http://www.puc.texas.gov/51617WinterERCOTOrder.pdf http://www.puc.texas.gov/51617WinterERCOTOrder.pdf

qeternity 6y ago
I mean price gouging is a grey area of law. It’s dependent on there being an emergency and then the prickly question of what price is illegal vs just responding to supply/demand. But I agree with you. This is going to be interesting. It should get dismissed but I have a feeling it won’t and that an overzealous judge will want to make a point about ERCOT.