4 ms·

Umm.. white nationalist tried to pull a coup a month ago. It's just possible that maybe, just maybe some speech isn't compatible with democracy...

trav4225 6y ago
It's difficult to imagine anything more democratic than free speech.
- BEEdwards 6y ago
  It looks good on paper and then in the real world people go "those guys that look different than you, they're the cause of all your problems and we should kill them/let us set up camps to kill them so you don't have to see it." That's what history has shown again and again. If you give free speech to people and groups who's express goal is to take away the power and speech of others they unironically will... The paradox of tolerance isn't some other world hypothetical it has been demonstrated again and again.
  - trav4225 6y ago
    This is the classic choice of liberty vs. security. Each has its pros and cons. Free speech may be abused, but that's the risk of freedom. And, in my mind at least, true freedom of speech is a necessary ingredient of authentic democracy. This is how I see it...
centimeter 6y ago
> boomer panty raid > "coup" Come on, man.
- taylus 6y ago
  Yeah it’s not like they killed a cop and dragged an enemy flag through the senate
  - ttt0 6y ago
    It's not like, because they didn't, as far as we know. It's unclear how that cop died, there wasn't any official statement. To people who are downvoting, the NYT story was made up: https://www.politifact.com/article/2021/feb/22/what-we-know-about-capitol-police-officer-brian-si/ https://www.politifact.com/article/2021/feb/22/what-we-know-...
  - splintercell 6y ago
    They killed a cop? Wow, I only read NYT's retraction of the story, if there was an update on the retraction then it missed my radar. Can you point me to a link from NYT claiming that rioters killed a cop?
  - centimeter 6y ago
    > it’s not like they killed a cop Correct, it doesn't seem like they did; the NYT story was debunked. > dragged an enemy flag through the senate The rebel flag isn't an "enemy flag" any more than the Republic of Texas flag. It's a historical curiosity that has some function as a completely detached cultural signifier. You are pathologically hyperbolic.
    - taylus 6y ago
      Wrong and wrong, try again.
beloch 6y ago
Few states have ever pretended that speech should be absolutely free. The U.S. draws the line at speech that incites the imminent and likely violation of the law[1]. Canada only guarantees free speech within "reasonable limits"[2]. It's still worth fighting against governments natural desire for control to ensure "reasonable" speech remains as free as possible. [1] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Imminent_lawless_action https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Imminent_lawless_action [2]https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freedom_of_expression_in_Canada https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freedom_of_expression_in_Can...
lou1306 6y ago
Also, Europe has been torn apart for centuries by religious, ethnic, or nationalistic hatred. The current laws reflect that. And communities that had to endure such hatred in the past will not be easily convinced that free speech is always a good thing.
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]

trav4225 6y ago

It's difficult to imagine anything more democratic than free speech.

BEEdwards 6y ago
It looks good on paper and then in the real world people go "those guys that look different than you, they're the cause of all your problems and we should kill them/let us set up camps to kill them so you don't have to see it." That's what history has shown again and again. If you give free speech to people and groups who's express goal is to take away the power and speech of others they unironically will... The paradox of tolerance isn't some other world hypothetical it has been demonstrated again and again.
- trav4225 6y ago
  This is the classic choice of liberty vs. security. Each has its pros and cons. Free speech may be abused, but that's the risk of freedom. And, in my mind at least, true freedom of speech is a necessary ingredient of authentic democracy. This is how I see it...

centimeter 6y ago

> boomer panty raid > "coup" Come on, man.

taylus 6y ago
Yeah it’s not like they killed a cop and dragged an enemy flag through the senate
- ttt0 6y ago
  It's not like, because they didn't, as far as we know. It's unclear how that cop died, there wasn't any official statement. To people who are downvoting, the NYT story was made up: https://www.politifact.com/article/2021/feb/22/what-we-know-about-capitol-police-officer-brian-si/ https://www.politifact.com/article/2021/feb/22/what-we-know-...
- splintercell 6y ago
  They killed a cop? Wow, I only read NYT's retraction of the story, if there was an update on the retraction then it missed my radar. Can you point me to a link from NYT claiming that rioters killed a cop?
- centimeter 6y ago
  > it’s not like they killed a cop Correct, it doesn't seem like they did; the NYT story was debunked. > dragged an enemy flag through the senate The rebel flag isn't an "enemy flag" any more than the Republic of Texas flag. It's a historical curiosity that has some function as a completely detached cultural signifier. You are pathologically hyperbolic.
  - taylus 6y ago
    Wrong and wrong, try again.

beloch 6y ago

Few states have ever pretended that speech should be absolutely free. The U.S. draws the line at speech that incites the imminent and likely violation of the law[1]. Canada only guarantees free speech within "reasonable limits"[2]. It's still worth fighting against governments natural desire for control to ensure "reasonable" speech remains as free as possible. [1] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Imminent_lawless_action https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Imminent_lawless_action [2]https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freedom_of_expression_in_Canada https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freedom_of_expression_in_Can...

lou1306 6y ago

Also, Europe has been torn apart for centuries by religious, ethnic, or nationalistic hatred. The current laws reflect that. And communities that had to endure such hatred in the past will not be easily convinced that free speech is always a good thing.

deleted 6y ago
[deleted]