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And what form of storage are you using? There's only 20 minutes of storage available via lithium ion batteries with current mining methods. Others like hydroele

And what form of storage are you using? There's only 20 minutes of storage available via lithium ion batteries with current mining methods. Others like hydroelectric are geographically dependent, and are large concrete and earth moving projects much like nuclear plants. Lazard uses current commercial cost figures. If people actually tri d to deploy grid storage on a wide scale, prices would skyrocket as supply fails to match demand.

jasonwatkinspdx 6y ago
The sweet spot in most models is a mix of hydro, batteries, and H2. While scaling up the industry isn't trivial, it's absurd to claim it's impossible or that demand outpacing supply will somehow reduce investment in greater supply.
- sir_bearington 6y ago
  Well let's hear it then. What is the mix? How many GWh of each storage type are we going to use? Typically plans for renewables + storage assumes some magical silver bullet like hydrogen or thermal storage that will make storage nearly free. Except neither of those have actually seen commercial deployment so they're no telling if they'll actually pan out. You haven't actually given a plan to provision this much storage - or even specified how much storage we'll need for that matter - so yeah I'm still very comfortable in claiming it is not possible. At least not without some massive breakthrough in storage technology, which doesn't yet exist.
  - Hypx 6y ago
    Hydrogen could achieve something like 84.8 PWh: https://www.pv-magazine.com/2020/06/16/hydrogen-storage-in-salt-caverns/ https://www.pv-magazine.com/2020/06/16/hydrogen-storage-in-s... While it's unlikely to reach this value, it's such a high figure that actually can solve the energy storage problem altogether.
    - sir_bearington 6y ago
      If someone actually finds a way to make a feasible storage solution from it. Nobody is installing hydrogen energy storage right now. Again, the answer is point to an unproven form of storage and assume it'll be a silver bullet.
      - Hypx 6y ago
        It's underground salt caverns. This is extremely feasible and has been done for decades with natural gas.
        sir_bearington 6y ago
        How many Gigawatt hours of underground H2 storage are currently deployed? What company can I call to install 1 GWh of hydrogen storage?
        pfdietz 6y ago
        Ah, the good old "if it hasn't happened yet it can't happen" argument. I'll come back at you: what technological component involved in underground storage of hydrogen is not already demonstrated?
        Hypx 6y ago
        It's been done for decades: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Underground_hydrogen_storage https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Underground_hydrogen_storage It's pretty well-established tech at this point.

jasonwatkinspdx 6y ago

The sweet spot in most models is a mix of hydro, batteries, and H2. While scaling up the industry isn't trivial, it's absurd to claim it's impossible or that demand outpacing supply will somehow reduce investment in greater supply.

sir_bearington 6y ago
Well let's hear it then. What is the mix? How many GWh of each storage type are we going to use? Typically plans for renewables + storage assumes some magical silver bullet like hydrogen or thermal storage that will make storage nearly free. Except neither of those have actually seen commercial deployment so they're no telling if they'll actually pan out. You haven't actually given a plan to provision this much storage - or even specified how much storage we'll need for that matter - so yeah I'm still very comfortable in claiming it is not possible. At least not without some massive breakthrough in storage technology, which doesn't yet exist.
- Hypx 6y ago
  Hydrogen could achieve something like 84.8 PWh: https://www.pv-magazine.com/2020/06/16/hydrogen-storage-in-salt-caverns/ https://www.pv-magazine.com/2020/06/16/hydrogen-storage-in-s... While it's unlikely to reach this value, it's such a high figure that actually can solve the energy storage problem altogether.
  - sir_bearington 6y ago
    If someone actually finds a way to make a feasible storage solution from it. Nobody is installing hydrogen energy storage right now. Again, the answer is point to an unproven form of storage and assume it'll be a silver bullet.
    - Hypx 6y ago
      It's underground salt caverns. This is extremely feasible and has been done for decades with natural gas.
      - sir_bearington 6y ago
        How many Gigawatt hours of underground H2 storage are currently deployed? What company can I call to install 1 GWh of hydrogen storage?
        pfdietz 6y ago
        Ah, the good old "if it hasn't happened yet it can't happen" argument. I'll come back at you: what technological component involved in underground storage of hydrogen is not already demonstrated?
        Hypx 6y ago
        It's been done for decades: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Underground_hydrogen_storage https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Underground_hydrogen_storage It's pretty well-established tech at this point.