5 ms·

I recall a Supreme Court justice saying that the best law clerks they ever got were NOT from the Ivy schools – but regardless, because the Ivy schools tended to

by cwwc 6y ago

I recall a Supreme Court justice saying that the best law clerks they ever got were NOT from the Ivy schools – but regardless, because the Ivy schools tended to weed out incompetent clerks (helping ease the screening process and provide a veritable "double check" on someone's competence) they would only pick Ivy credentialed clerks in the future. Stakes were to high not to. I wonder if the same can generally be said for employers and gov (it's just easier to screen from a pool that has be whittled down to a more manageable size already). Unfair? Probably. Rational? I think so.

hntrader 6y ago
This is why it's a good idea for people from non-top tier colleges to run away from prestige. You'll never be able to compete on merit at a place like McKinsey, a top law firm or an IB. You'll be undervalued due to lack of pedigree. Better pick something more meritocratic and less focused on signalling value of your CV. I know this is an ideal that doesn't truly exist anywhere, but there's certainly degrees to which it's true and that varies between industries.
- throwaway5752 6y ago
  No, you earn your way in. Nobody asks where the CTO of an acquired company went to school (or didn't). Elite school degrees are just a shortcut for signal various attributes for young people. It means less and less the further you get from college. And you can "credential" yourself via other accomplishments. Witness Perelman and arxiv, or Bill Gates, noted Harvard dropout.
  - hntrader 6y ago
    Right, but a lack of pedigree is more of a handicap at McKinsey than it is at Facebook, and it's more of a handicap at Facebook than your own startup. It's possible to earn your way in to McKinsey after going to a tier-3 college, but it's just way harder all else equal (and why would anyone bother without the boost of pedigree at a place that highly values it, we will be at a disadvantage from day one).
    - throwaway5752 6y ago
      I can't speak for McKinsey at all. I will take your word for it. My limited experience has not been positive.
    - tomdell 6y ago
      McKinsey is in the business of convincing governments and other entities into parting with massive sums of cash for relatively simple research and recommendations. They get by mostly on the appearance of prestige rather than any legitimate value add, thus their focus on hiring based on school prestige.
    - candybar 6y ago
      Investors certainly care about pedigree and having McKinsey on your resume (or Google or Facebook if you will), not to mention the experience and connections, are going to help when you're trying to raise money for your startup. There's no escaping from signaling simply because of the impossibility of evaluating every single person on merit (as you can see from discussions on hiring here), so it doesn't hurt to play the game when the opportunity arises. And generally speaking, lack of pedigree is much less of an issue once you're in and once you have prestigious employers on your resume, where you went to college becomes a lot less important to prospective employers.
  - ska 6y ago
    I think you two are basically agreeing. GP is saying that such credentials are [edit]not a strong proxy for merit (true) but a good proxy, along with a few other things, for network value and social standing, etc. So if you don't have that credential but want to compete with people who do, the worst thing to do is do it on their home field, as it were (e.g. Mckinsey). Instead, prove yourself somewhere else and if you do it well enough you'll be on an even footing (or better) later on.
    - throwaway5752 6y ago
      No, that is not accurate. I disagree. I think ivy league degrees are a great proxy for intelligence and work ethic. Ivy league grads I've worked with are fantastic. If you have to hire a bunch of college graduates, it's a fine strategy. If you are hiring on the open market, though, you don't have to rely on it, you can rely on someone's professional accomplishments which is a truer proxy of the values you are hiring for.
      - hntrader 6y ago
        I think it's also a good proxy for quality as well. The average IQ of people in Ivies is over 130, compared to about 110 in regular colleges. I just think that a 140 IQ graduate from a regular college should self-select out of areas that specifically value prestige (such as an IB), since they're likely to be undervalued.
        ska 6y ago
        I suspect we mostly agree (although I don't have much faith in IQ as a useful predictor except at the margins) but there is a semantic issue; what do you mean by "quality"? I find "went to an Ivy" a really good predictor for "above average performer", but I find it a weak predictor for "top rate performer", at least without a bunch of extra information. I also think the number top performing people who did not go to an elite college handily outweighs the number who did - but this is the nature of elite unless the selection criteria are very rigorous and targeted at something measurable. Your comment about people in institutions that highly value this is on target, I think.
- csa 6y ago
  > This is why it's a good idea for people from non-top tier colleges to run away from prestige. You'll never be able to compete on merit at a place like McKinsey, a top law firm or an IB It certainly won’t be as easy as folks from Ivies might have it, but folks from state schools can make it big time. Tim Cook is an Auburn grad, for example. A friend of mine is a Michigan State grad. He worked his way up the chain in NYC by providing tremendous value. He retired in his 40s with a mid-eight figure net worth after being a partner in a hedge fund that ran its course (raised money, made money, closed down). If someone is ambitious and talented, their degree won’t stop them.
solosoyokaze 6y ago
I would argue the opposite. That it's harder to weed out incompetent people from Ivy schools because so many of the people there are there based on their wealth and not their merit.
- ska 6y ago
  This really isn't true. There are very few actually incompetent people going through Ivy's. You have some really talented people (especially on full rides), and you have a bunch of average to slightly above average talent with a) a 1st class education from birth and b) good networks. Both of those things have real world value, you can't dismiss out of hand. Yes, it's privilege - that's how it works.
  - solosoyokaze 6y ago
    Depends on what role you're hiring for, because a good network does not help you write code (for instance).
    - ska 6y ago
      That doesn't make someone incompetent; it may make them a bad fit for a particular job.
      - solosoyokaze 6y ago
        No, it makes them incompetent. They lack the competence required to do the job. Semantics aside, my point is that being from an ivy league is not a strong signal for being a good developer (and many other things).
        ska 6y ago
        Your characterization is not realistic. Sure if you hire an ivy league grad with a degree in french literature they may not be much of a programmer. If you hire one with a CS degree they will probably be decent - at least at the higher end of US colleges. The idea that the ivy league is swimming with under-performing people who are only there because of wealth and connections just isn't true. What is closer to truth - there are lots of people there who are a bit above average capability, very good preparation, and also have family money and/or connections. In a truly broad, merit only based admissions process most of these people wouldn't make the cut. But it's not because they are weak students, rather because the number of slots in ivy is a small number compared to the total number of strong potential students in the country if you looked really hard.
dfxm12 6y ago
From this, I think one thing we can deduce is that Ivy League schools select for the same criteria as SCOTUS clerks. We can probably say this is true in other fields, as well. After all, we see how successful some Ivy dropouts are: Mark Zuckerberg, Bill Gates, Matt Damon, Cole Porter, Buckminster Fuller, etc., are just examples from Harvard. It's not the Harvard education that makes one successful, but being the type of person that gets into Harvard in the first place (a person with, i.e., that same combination among old money, connections, a parent who went to Harvard, dumb luck, etc. that they look for in SCOTUS clerks). I'm not sure we have a list of people who were accepted into an Ivy and decided not to go, but I'm sure those people would be just as likely to be successful.

by cwwc 6y ago

hntrader 6y ago

This is why it's a good idea for people from non-top tier colleges to run away from prestige. You'll never be able to compete on merit at a place like McKinsey, a top law firm or an IB. You'll be undervalued due to lack of pedigree. Better pick something more meritocratic and less focused on signalling value of your CV. I know this is an ideal that doesn't truly exist anywhere, but there's certainly degrees to which it's true and that varies between industries.

throwaway5752 6y ago
No, you earn your way in. Nobody asks where the CTO of an acquired company went to school (or didn't). Elite school degrees are just a shortcut for signal various attributes for young people. It means less and less the further you get from college. And you can "credential" yourself via other accomplishments. Witness Perelman and arxiv, or Bill Gates, noted Harvard dropout.
- hntrader 6y ago
  Right, but a lack of pedigree is more of a handicap at McKinsey than it is at Facebook, and it's more of a handicap at Facebook than your own startup. It's possible to earn your way in to McKinsey after going to a tier-3 college, but it's just way harder all else equal (and why would anyone bother without the boost of pedigree at a place that highly values it, we will be at a disadvantage from day one).
  - throwaway5752 6y ago
    I can't speak for McKinsey at all. I will take your word for it. My limited experience has not been positive.
  - tomdell 6y ago
    McKinsey is in the business of convincing governments and other entities into parting with massive sums of cash for relatively simple research and recommendations. They get by mostly on the appearance of prestige rather than any legitimate value add, thus their focus on hiring based on school prestige.
  - candybar 6y ago
    Investors certainly care about pedigree and having McKinsey on your resume (or Google or Facebook if you will), not to mention the experience and connections, are going to help when you're trying to raise money for your startup. There's no escaping from signaling simply because of the impossibility of evaluating every single person on merit (as you can see from discussions on hiring here), so it doesn't hurt to play the game when the opportunity arises. And generally speaking, lack of pedigree is much less of an issue once you're in and once you have prestigious employers on your resume, where you went to college becomes a lot less important to prospective employers.
- ska 6y ago
  I think you two are basically agreeing. GP is saying that such credentials are [edit]not a strong proxy for merit (true) but a good proxy, along with a few other things, for network value and social standing, etc. So if you don't have that credential but want to compete with people who do, the worst thing to do is do it on their home field, as it were (e.g. Mckinsey). Instead, prove yourself somewhere else and if you do it well enough you'll be on an even footing (or better) later on.
  - throwaway5752 6y ago
    No, that is not accurate. I disagree. I think ivy league degrees are a great proxy for intelligence and work ethic. Ivy league grads I've worked with are fantastic. If you have to hire a bunch of college graduates, it's a fine strategy. If you are hiring on the open market, though, you don't have to rely on it, you can rely on someone's professional accomplishments which is a truer proxy of the values you are hiring for.
    - hntrader 6y ago
      I think it's also a good proxy for quality as well. The average IQ of people in Ivies is over 130, compared to about 110 in regular colleges. I just think that a 140 IQ graduate from a regular college should self-select out of areas that specifically value prestige (such as an IB), since they're likely to be undervalued.
      - ska 6y ago
        I suspect we mostly agree (although I don't have much faith in IQ as a useful predictor except at the margins) but there is a semantic issue; what do you mean by "quality"? I find "went to an Ivy" a really good predictor for "above average performer", but I find it a weak predictor for "top rate performer", at least without a bunch of extra information. I also think the number top performing people who did not go to an elite college handily outweighs the number who did - but this is the nature of elite unless the selection criteria are very rigorous and targeted at something measurable. Your comment about people in institutions that highly value this is on target, I think.
csa 6y ago
> This is why it's a good idea for people from non-top tier colleges to run away from prestige. You'll never be able to compete on merit at a place like McKinsey, a top law firm or an IB It certainly won’t be as easy as folks from Ivies might have it, but folks from state schools can make it big time. Tim Cook is an Auburn grad, for example. A friend of mine is a Michigan State grad. He worked his way up the chain in NYC by providing tremendous value. He retired in his 40s with a mid-eight figure net worth after being a partner in a hedge fund that ran its course (raised money, made money, closed down). If someone is ambitious and talented, their degree won’t stop them.

solosoyokaze 6y ago

I would argue the opposite. That it's harder to weed out incompetent people from Ivy schools because so many of the people there are there based on their wealth and not their merit.

ska 6y ago
This really isn't true. There are very few actually incompetent people going through Ivy's. You have some really talented people (especially on full rides), and you have a bunch of average to slightly above average talent with a) a 1st class education from birth and b) good networks. Both of those things have real world value, you can't dismiss out of hand. Yes, it's privilege - that's how it works.
- solosoyokaze 6y ago
  Depends on what role you're hiring for, because a good network does not help you write code (for instance).
  - ska 6y ago
    That doesn't make someone incompetent; it may make them a bad fit for a particular job.
    - solosoyokaze 6y ago
      No, it makes them incompetent. They lack the competence required to do the job. Semantics aside, my point is that being from an ivy league is not a strong signal for being a good developer (and many other things).
      - ska 6y ago
        Your characterization is not realistic. Sure if you hire an ivy league grad with a degree in french literature they may not be much of a programmer. If you hire one with a CS degree they will probably be decent - at least at the higher end of US colleges. The idea that the ivy league is swimming with under-performing people who are only there because of wealth and connections just isn't true. What is closer to truth - there are lots of people there who are a bit above average capability, very good preparation, and also have family money and/or connections. In a truly broad, merit only based admissions process most of these people wouldn't make the cut. But it's not because they are weak students, rather because the number of slots in ivy is a small number compared to the total number of strong potential students in the country if you looked really hard.

dfxm12 6y ago

From this, I think one thing we can deduce is that Ivy League schools select for the same criteria as SCOTUS clerks. We can probably say this is true in other fields, as well. After all, we see how successful some Ivy dropouts are: Mark Zuckerberg, Bill Gates, Matt Damon, Cole Porter, Buckminster Fuller, etc., are just examples from Harvard. It's not the Harvard education that makes one successful, but being the type of person that gets into Harvard in the first place (a person with, i.e., that same combination among old money, connections, a parent who went to Harvard, dumb luck, etc. that they look for in SCOTUS clerks). I'm not sure we have a list of people who were accepted into an Ivy and decided not to go, but I'm sure those people would be just as likely to be successful.