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AING folks have been doing lucid dreaming for years, their Russian forum at forum.aing.ru has 400k messages, so if you're interested in the topic, there's somet

AING folks have been doing lucid dreaming for years, their Russian forum at forum.aing.ru has 400k messages, so if you're interested in the topic, there's something you can learn from them. They have a number of attempts to make contacts with each other while lucid dreaming. You can check out the English version for their stuff here: https://obe4u.com https://obe4u.com

throw1234651234 6y ago
I have practiced lucid dreaming for literally years, and imho anyone who says they get super detailed dreams is full of **. Your mind doesn't have enough processing power to render realistic scenes. It's all a blurry mess and you wake up if you exert too much control.
- ckosidows 6y ago
  Isn't it possible other people experience their dreams in a different way than you do?
  - throw1234651234 6y ago
    Sure, it's possible, by in my experience, most people exaggerate everything - especially things that can't be verified. The other reason I have a hard time believing this is that I know normal people can't visualize anything. Artists, really good artists, are able to visualize a face with some detail. Most can't visualize a circle and toggle its color, let alone anything complex. To me, that is a strong argument to believe the mind can't generate clear worlds, as people claim.
    - tyre 6y ago
      > Most can't visualize a circle and toggle its color, let alone anything complex. What? I’m doing this right now. I can do it with a white tiger. I can see Barrack Obama in a marching band on Mars. I have a friend who cannot picture anything in their mind, so it’s probably a spectrum. You might be projecting your experience onto others.
      - martingoodson 6y ago
        'One of the creators of the Firefox internet browser, Blake Ross, realised his experience of visual imagery was vastly different from most people when he read about a man who lost his ability to imagine after surgery. In a Facebook post, Ross said: What do you mean ‘lost’ his ability? […] Shouldn’t we be amazed he ever had that ability? We’ve heard from many people who have experienced a similar epiphany to Ross. They too were astonished to discover that their complete lack of ability to picture visual imagery was different from the norm.' https://theconversation.com/blind-in-the-mind-why-some-people-cant-see-pictures-in-their-imagination-86849 https://theconversation.com/blind-in-the-mind-why-some-peopl...
        psalminen 6y ago
        Every aspect about the way people think is on a spectrum. There is also the split between those who have an inner monologue in their heads the those who don't. There's also studies showing these two populations astonished that the other exists.
        Judgmentality 6y ago
        ...there are people that don't have a monologue in their heads?
        psalminen 6y ago
        I know, weird right? Here[0] is a link with some more information about it. [0] https://medium.datadriveninvestor.com/some-people-dont-have-an-inner-monologue-and-i-am-one-of-them-1c47a0e8b48a https://medium.datadriveninvestor.com/some-people-dont-have-...
        Judgmentality 6y ago
        > So for myself personally, I see the words a person is speaking as they would appear being typed on the page of a computer screen and never once will hear the person’s voice speaking them, nor my own. This sounds like a perversion of synesthesia to me. This is like LSD. Do these people have strange accents like people born deaf?
    - Bakary 6y ago
      Are you sure you aren't suffering from aphantasia and extrapolating that to other people?
      - throw1234651234 6y ago
        No, I am not. Or I wouldn't be able to draw from imagination. Most people get a brief, vague glimpse and act like they can hold an image in their mind. You aren't holding it if you can't draw from it. End of story.
        Bakary 6y ago
        >You aren't holding it if you can't draw from it. That doesn't sound plausible. In my personal case, I can maintain a clear image but be unable to translate it accurately to paper or to another medium (electronic or not) since it involves skill. The fidelity I am able to attain has improved as my skill has improved, and I can clearly see the frustrating differences between the image in my mind and what I then drew without yet being able to remedy it. If the proposition were correct neither of these things would be possible.
        deleted 6y ago
        [deleted]
    - andai 6y ago
      Aphantasia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aphantasia https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aphantasia
    - godshatter 6y ago
      I have aphantasia, and I have specifically invoked lucid dreams. I use the SSILD method (which stands for senses induced lucid dream). I have no ability to visualize during the waking state at all, but I do obviously remember what I see during the day. When I have lucid dreams, they are visual, and detailed. They can be blurry, but there are techniques to increase their clarity. I specifically examine closely what around me when I realize that I am dreaming, and that tends to make things more detailed. In fact, my dreams are visually more detailed and clear than in my waking life, because of my failing eyesight. There are other techniques people use, such as spinning around quickly or simply asking loudly for clarity. Aphantasia seems to be a defect in (or a difference in, I don't know) one portion of the brain whereas dreaming seems to use a separate portion of the brain. I can also see images when I'm between being awake and asleep, which seems to be related to dreaming. I've had a couple of dreams where I've successfully used the WILD technique (wake induced lucid dreaming) where you use hypnagogic imagery to create an environment and (if you're successful at it) go directly from being awake to being in a lucid dream. It's an experience that will lead you to believe that you do actually visually experience your dreams, since there was no apparent break between lying on your bed and entering a dream. I've also watched a dream fade before, and woke up immediately afterwards with no apparent loss in consciousness. You don't have to believe me, of course, that's up to you. I'm as surprised as anyone that I can visualize while dreaming but not at all when I'm awake.
- sweetsocks21 6y ago
  I can tell you that I have had dreams that I have mistaken for reality. In fact some of those dreams became normal memories that I have to filter because they never actually happened. I've been able to read magazines, have full conversations with multiple people, stare at a brick wall and notice all the little pits. It does not happen every day, but maybe a couple times a month. I used to have severe sleep apnea and those were the most intense dreams. So I don't think it's possible to extrapolate your own experience to others. The mind already constructs a model of reality, so why wouldn't it be able to in a dream state?
- mrtesthah 6y ago
  That’s not quite true; you have far more neurons going to the retina than you have coming from it. The retina supplies a surprisingly small amount of bits per second to the brain. Neuroscientists believe that at least half of our conscious experience of reality is effectively “hallucinated” by the brain based on internal models it has built from past experiences. So it’s highly plausible that that same perception-generating system which creates your conscious perception of reality could also function while asleep.
- codr7 6y ago
  Visualization is a skill that can be practiced, and some brains just seem to be more visually oriented than others from my experience.
  - beermonster 6y ago
    You can always try and simplify too. Some days I can visualise anything I want, other times my mind seems too busy or not focussed. On those days I visualise being in an empty cloudy pool, or walking in a snowy field as there’s less for me to render. Works quite well.
- DoreenMichele 6y ago
  There is some vague, hand wavy evidence suggesting that enough of the right nutrients can help. I want to say people who live by or visit the coast (thus exposed to salt and minerals from the sea) seem to have more vivid mental stuff and interest in boldly colorful art/decor. B vitamins are also known to be important to the brain.
- mehphp 6y ago
  This seems odd to me, I definitely have very detailed and realistic dreams. I'm also a very visual thinker so maybe we are just different?
- throwaway_kufu 6y ago
  > Your mind doesn't have enough processing power to render realistic scenes. isn’t that exactly what the mind (or at least the brains visual cortex) is doing all day long?
- pengaru 6y ago
  According to you, a sample size of one... Back when I dabbled in extreme sleep deprivation I'd be forced into a sort of wakeful sleep where what I can only describe as "eye movies" would forcibly take over my vision center. They were entirely fabricated, and indistinguishable from normal vision. My eyes would still be open, in some cases I'd still be engaged in a demanding activity like riding a motorcycle (this was insane), but my mind was completely out to lunch and I'd be observing a completely different world than the one reflected on my retinas. My conventional sleep dreams never had that amount of consciously-accessible fidelity, but I presume some people can access their dreams as well as my sleep deprivation experiences proved for me. Some people can't access their dreams at all, why wouldn't variety in the other direction occur as well? I think we should assume it's a spectrum across the whole gamut.
- Enginerrrd 6y ago
  FYI, I used to have similar experiences. Until I started deliberately lucid dreaming and learned some "dream stabilization" techniques. The first time I had a proper, photo-realistic dream with complete awareness that it was a dream it blew my fucking mind in a way that was almost religious. I could feel the sun on my face, and the texture of the sidewalk I was walking on. I couldn't stop looking at plants! It was incredible to see every leaf and twig with the realization that they were being entirely rendered by my brain in real time. TRUST ME, those experiences are completely possible, and the detail a brain can create is nothing short of ASTOUNDING. Upon reflection, it makes perfect sense. EVERYTHING you conceive of or percieve in your waking life is a lie, essentially a hallucination of sorts. It is a mostly high-level construction and summary made by some part of your brain based on sensory input. It turns out, your brain is perfectly capable of synthesizing the high level construction without the fine-grained sensory input.
  - mkmcde 6y ago
    How did you get to that point? I've been working towards trying for consistent lucid dreams. I'm most successful when I wake up early and go back to sleep for ~1 hour.
    - throw1234651234 6y ago
      1. It's most likely a lie. I am not saying that to start a flame war, I just have actual experience with this. As in years of dedicated experience. 2. Keep a dream journal. 3. Do reality checking throughout the day. 4. Meditate before sleep. Do a relaxation exercise. There's 100s of them. "Lucid Dreaming: A Concise Guide to Awakening in Your Dreams and in Your Life" is the definitive book on the topic that everyone copies. No one has additional information.
      - mkmcde 6y ago
        What about it is most likely a lie? I've had dreams go lucid. I mainly want to use them to practice physical skills in the dream world and have them transfer to real life. I remember ready a study about it.
- jeddy3 6y ago
  Yeah I know what you mean, I have been trying physical excercise for literally years now, and everybody who says they enjoy it is literally full of **. Everything I do makes me sweaty and winded, even walking.
  - throw1234651234 6y ago
    I am not sure if this is sarcasm, but there is a huge trend of ascribing absolutely magical benefits to working out, eating clean, and taking cold showers. It's a direct result of influencers selling a lifestyle. I work out, and have my entire life, but it definitely doesn't feel amazing - it's just a grind and you feel a bit better afterward.
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
- Mayzie 6y ago
  My god, the gall of you to claim that since you can't do something, nobody else can. Quite a preposterous and absurd claim. I'm sure you have seen this[1] image that tests for a phenomenon known as aphantasia. While I myself can only briefly hold the fourth image in my head, I know several who can hold the fifth or sixth in their head continuously with ease. Likewise, I practice lucid dreaming on the regular, and yes, photorealistic scenes frequently do happen, if you have the memory for it. I am also one of those people who remember entire conversations and snippets from years past. During sprint planning, often nobody could remember why something was done the way it was, but I pipe up and can give detailed reasonings and the history as to why even if I had very little to no involvement in implementing it. [1] https://i.redd.it/exiht9hlb0c21.jpg https://i.redd.it/exiht9hlb0c21.jpg
  - wellthisisgreat 6y ago
    Can you explain what the test is about? I need to look at the picture and recall it? For how long and how soon?
  - throw1234651234 6y ago
    There is no "gall" involved here - it's called experience. When you have lifted weights for the past 15 years and someone tells you they deadlifted 500 lbs the first time they tried it, you have enough experience to know they are lying. Simple as. As far as your image - I still maintain that if you can "hold it", you can draw it, especially for simple geometric shapes like a star.

throw1234651234 6y ago

I have practiced lucid dreaming for literally years, and imho anyone who says they get super detailed dreams is full of **. Your mind doesn't have enough processing power to render realistic scenes. It's all a blurry mess and you wake up if you exert too much control.

ckosidows 6y ago
Isn't it possible other people experience their dreams in a different way than you do?
- throw1234651234 6y ago
  Sure, it's possible, by in my experience, most people exaggerate everything - especially things that can't be verified. The other reason I have a hard time believing this is that I know normal people can't visualize anything. Artists, really good artists, are able to visualize a face with some detail. Most can't visualize a circle and toggle its color, let alone anything complex. To me, that is a strong argument to believe the mind can't generate clear worlds, as people claim.
  - tyre 6y ago
    > Most can't visualize a circle and toggle its color, let alone anything complex. What? I’m doing this right now. I can do it with a white tiger. I can see Barrack Obama in a marching band on Mars. I have a friend who cannot picture anything in their mind, so it’s probably a spectrum. You might be projecting your experience onto others.
    - martingoodson 6y ago
      'One of the creators of the Firefox internet browser, Blake Ross, realised his experience of visual imagery was vastly different from most people when he read about a man who lost his ability to imagine after surgery. In a Facebook post, Ross said: What do you mean ‘lost’ his ability? […] Shouldn’t we be amazed he ever had that ability? We’ve heard from many people who have experienced a similar epiphany to Ross. They too were astonished to discover that their complete lack of ability to picture visual imagery was different from the norm.' https://theconversation.com/blind-in-the-mind-why-some-people-cant-see-pictures-in-their-imagination-86849 https://theconversation.com/blind-in-the-mind-why-some-peopl...
      - psalminen 6y ago
        Every aspect about the way people think is on a spectrum. There is also the split between those who have an inner monologue in their heads the those who don't. There's also studies showing these two populations astonished that the other exists.
        Judgmentality 6y ago
        ...there are people that don't have a monologue in their heads?
        psalminen 6y ago
        I know, weird right? Here[0] is a link with some more information about it. [0] https://medium.datadriveninvestor.com/some-people-dont-have-an-inner-monologue-and-i-am-one-of-them-1c47a0e8b48a https://medium.datadriveninvestor.com/some-people-dont-have-...
        Judgmentality 6y ago
        > So for myself personally, I see the words a person is speaking as they would appear being typed on the page of a computer screen and never once will hear the person’s voice speaking them, nor my own. This sounds like a perversion of synesthesia to me. This is like LSD. Do these people have strange accents like people born deaf?
  - Bakary 6y ago
    Are you sure you aren't suffering from aphantasia and extrapolating that to other people?
    - throw1234651234 6y ago
      No, I am not. Or I wouldn't be able to draw from imagination. Most people get a brief, vague glimpse and act like they can hold an image in their mind. You aren't holding it if you can't draw from it. End of story.
      - Bakary 6y ago
        >You aren't holding it if you can't draw from it. That doesn't sound plausible. In my personal case, I can maintain a clear image but be unable to translate it accurately to paper or to another medium (electronic or not) since it involves skill. The fidelity I am able to attain has improved as my skill has improved, and I can clearly see the frustrating differences between the image in my mind and what I then drew without yet being able to remedy it. If the proposition were correct neither of these things would be possible.
      - deleted 6y ago
        [deleted]
  - andai 6y ago
    Aphantasia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aphantasia https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aphantasia
  - godshatter 6y ago
    I have aphantasia, and I have specifically invoked lucid dreams. I use the SSILD method (which stands for senses induced lucid dream). I have no ability to visualize during the waking state at all, but I do obviously remember what I see during the day. When I have lucid dreams, they are visual, and detailed. They can be blurry, but there are techniques to increase their clarity. I specifically examine closely what around me when I realize that I am dreaming, and that tends to make things more detailed. In fact, my dreams are visually more detailed and clear than in my waking life, because of my failing eyesight. There are other techniques people use, such as spinning around quickly or simply asking loudly for clarity. Aphantasia seems to be a defect in (or a difference in, I don't know) one portion of the brain whereas dreaming seems to use a separate portion of the brain. I can also see images when I'm between being awake and asleep, which seems to be related to dreaming. I've had a couple of dreams where I've successfully used the WILD technique (wake induced lucid dreaming) where you use hypnagogic imagery to create an environment and (if you're successful at it) go directly from being awake to being in a lucid dream. It's an experience that will lead you to believe that you do actually visually experience your dreams, since there was no apparent break between lying on your bed and entering a dream. I've also watched a dream fade before, and woke up immediately afterwards with no apparent loss in consciousness. You don't have to believe me, of course, that's up to you. I'm as surprised as anyone that I can visualize while dreaming but not at all when I'm awake.
sweetsocks21 6y ago
I can tell you that I have had dreams that I have mistaken for reality. In fact some of those dreams became normal memories that I have to filter because they never actually happened. I've been able to read magazines, have full conversations with multiple people, stare at a brick wall and notice all the little pits. It does not happen every day, but maybe a couple times a month. I used to have severe sleep apnea and those were the most intense dreams. So I don't think it's possible to extrapolate your own experience to others. The mind already constructs a model of reality, so why wouldn't it be able to in a dream state?
mrtesthah 6y ago
That’s not quite true; you have far more neurons going to the retina than you have coming from it. The retina supplies a surprisingly small amount of bits per second to the brain. Neuroscientists believe that at least half of our conscious experience of reality is effectively “hallucinated” by the brain based on internal models it has built from past experiences. So it’s highly plausible that that same perception-generating system which creates your conscious perception of reality could also function while asleep.
codr7 6y ago
Visualization is a skill that can be practiced, and some brains just seem to be more visually oriented than others from my experience.
- beermonster 6y ago
  You can always try and simplify too. Some days I can visualise anything I want, other times my mind seems too busy or not focussed. On those days I visualise being in an empty cloudy pool, or walking in a snowy field as there’s less for me to render. Works quite well.
DoreenMichele 6y ago
There is some vague, hand wavy evidence suggesting that enough of the right nutrients can help. I want to say people who live by or visit the coast (thus exposed to salt and minerals from the sea) seem to have more vivid mental stuff and interest in boldly colorful art/decor. B vitamins are also known to be important to the brain.
mehphp 6y ago
This seems odd to me, I definitely have very detailed and realistic dreams. I'm also a very visual thinker so maybe we are just different?
throwaway_kufu 6y ago
> Your mind doesn't have enough processing power to render realistic scenes. isn’t that exactly what the mind (or at least the brains visual cortex) is doing all day long?
pengaru 6y ago
According to you, a sample size of one... Back when I dabbled in extreme sleep deprivation I'd be forced into a sort of wakeful sleep where what I can only describe as "eye movies" would forcibly take over my vision center. They were entirely fabricated, and indistinguishable from normal vision. My eyes would still be open, in some cases I'd still be engaged in a demanding activity like riding a motorcycle (this was insane), but my mind was completely out to lunch and I'd be observing a completely different world than the one reflected on my retinas. My conventional sleep dreams never had that amount of consciously-accessible fidelity, but I presume some people can access their dreams as well as my sleep deprivation experiences proved for me. Some people can't access their dreams at all, why wouldn't variety in the other direction occur as well? I think we should assume it's a spectrum across the whole gamut.
Enginerrrd 6y ago
FYI, I used to have similar experiences. Until I started deliberately lucid dreaming and learned some "dream stabilization" techniques. The first time I had a proper, photo-realistic dream with complete awareness that it was a dream it blew my fucking mind in a way that was almost religious. I could feel the sun on my face, and the texture of the sidewalk I was walking on. I couldn't stop looking at plants! It was incredible to see every leaf and twig with the realization that they were being entirely rendered by my brain in real time. TRUST ME, those experiences are completely possible, and the detail a brain can create is nothing short of ASTOUNDING. Upon reflection, it makes perfect sense. EVERYTHING you conceive of or percieve in your waking life is a lie, essentially a hallucination of sorts. It is a mostly high-level construction and summary made by some part of your brain based on sensory input. It turns out, your brain is perfectly capable of synthesizing the high level construction without the fine-grained sensory input.
- mkmcde 6y ago
  How did you get to that point? I've been working towards trying for consistent lucid dreams. I'm most successful when I wake up early and go back to sleep for ~1 hour.
  - throw1234651234 6y ago
    1. It's most likely a lie. I am not saying that to start a flame war, I just have actual experience with this. As in years of dedicated experience. 2. Keep a dream journal. 3. Do reality checking throughout the day. 4. Meditate before sleep. Do a relaxation exercise. There's 100s of them. "Lucid Dreaming: A Concise Guide to Awakening in Your Dreams and in Your Life" is the definitive book on the topic that everyone copies. No one has additional information.
    - mkmcde 6y ago
      What about it is most likely a lie? I've had dreams go lucid. I mainly want to use them to practice physical skills in the dream world and have them transfer to real life. I remember ready a study about it.
jeddy3 6y ago
Yeah I know what you mean, I have been trying physical excercise for literally years now, and everybody who says they enjoy it is literally full of **. Everything I do makes me sweaty and winded, even walking.
- throw1234651234 6y ago
  I am not sure if this is sarcasm, but there is a huge trend of ascribing absolutely magical benefits to working out, eating clean, and taking cold showers. It's a direct result of influencers selling a lifestyle. I work out, and have my entire life, but it definitely doesn't feel amazing - it's just a grind and you feel a bit better afterward.
deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
Mayzie 6y ago
My god, the gall of you to claim that since you can't do something, nobody else can. Quite a preposterous and absurd claim. I'm sure you have seen this[1] image that tests for a phenomenon known as aphantasia. While I myself can only briefly hold the fourth image in my head, I know several who can hold the fifth or sixth in their head continuously with ease. Likewise, I practice lucid dreaming on the regular, and yes, photorealistic scenes frequently do happen, if you have the memory for it. I am also one of those people who remember entire conversations and snippets from years past. During sprint planning, often nobody could remember why something was done the way it was, but I pipe up and can give detailed reasonings and the history as to why even if I had very little to no involvement in implementing it. [1] https://i.redd.it/exiht9hlb0c21.jpg https://i.redd.it/exiht9hlb0c21.jpg
- wellthisisgreat 6y ago
  Can you explain what the test is about? I need to look at the picture and recall it? For how long and how soon?
- throw1234651234 6y ago
  There is no "gall" involved here - it's called experience. When you have lifted weights for the past 15 years and someone tells you they deadlifted 500 lbs the first time they tried it, you have enough experience to know they are lying. Simple as. As far as your image - I still maintain that if you can "hold it", you can draw it, especially for simple geometric shapes like a star.