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It's very hard to make an electric scooter competitive with 150cc which is a mode of transport for probably a billion people. 150cc will be better, and cheaper

It's very hard to make an electric scooter competitive with 150cc which is a mode of transport for probably a billion people. 150cc will be better, and cheaper no matter what you try. I researched the problem extensively when I worked in a number of companies working in the electric scooter space. Cheapest 150cc scooters sell for $500 — that's the price of a battery pack to make a scooter with comparable range to 150cc on one tank of fuel. Prices ease in 250cc-300cc segment significantly. $1500-$3000 for low end scooter in this segment, but the majority of scooters in this segment are not that low end. You can sell 300cc for $3000-$5000 easily even in places like Vietnam, and Indonesia.

marshmallow_12 6y ago
if you can get 150cc for 500 then i'm living in the wrong country. In london they are ideal.
- baybal2 6y ago
  An Asian 150cc is definitely not what you get in London. It would be the most barebones scooter you can imagine, with motor making less than 10hp, body made from very thin metal, and it will rust to nothing in 5 years.
  - oblio 6y ago
    Worse than that, it would probably have 0 particle filters of any kind, so the fumes will probably be horrendous.
haspok 6y ago
That's why we need regulations that will ban the sale of any new non-eletric vehicle in the next 5-10-15 years. Thankfully Europe is going in this direction. Asia not so much.
specialist 6y ago
> I researched the problem extensively... Just curious: Did your efforts identify the sweet spots, given misc costs. Like the "makes sense" price as carbon costs rise and battery cost per amp fall. Factoring weight, distance, speed, recharge times, etc. Why I ask: The most interesting part of the Tesla origin story, to me, is the recognition that laptop battery cost per amp trends would make full-sized EV automobile viable. So they jumped in to catch that wave. Timing is important. Separately: I'm also curious what the market segmentation line is between bike and scooter. eg Maybe bikes can peel away some of the scooter market. I've observed that biked wheel sizes are getting smaller as well as getting cargo features. So why not?
- baybal2 6y ago
  I did. First is still the same 150cc replacement since the niche is sooo big. Even if you cost as much as best 150cc on the market, somebody will still buy it for electric convenience, so load it up with cheap fancy features too like cruise control, seat heater etc. A good 150cc has around 7-8kw of power, and it is the upper limit of a hub motor, and passive cooling, which you should capitalise on. 4.5kwh battery for 50-60km range. 6kwh premium option for around 80km. Air cooled motor controller for a completely liquid free design. Screechingly, you can fit into $5000-6000 premium 150cc segment.
- baybal2 6y ago
  Second is 250cc-300cc equivalent. Basically an Nmax, or Xmax killer. From that segment, people do expect real speed, and some semblance of a highway rideability. This definitely needs above 10kw motor, which means liquid cooling, and bye bye hub motor. Batteries need to be MUCH larger since what's the fun of riding on a highway if you can only drive 60km? Think of up to 10-12kwh options. Huge batteries also assume longer charging, or higher currents. Since we already went with liquid cooling for motor, liquid cooling a battery pack is the next logical step, and same is for motor controller. Charger circuit will likely have to be dedicated as you will likely go above 16 cells. Weight will be an issue. If you go above 180kg (Xmax 300) you will scare off a lot of women buyers. The dynamic options of the chassis will also become important, so more will go into non-powertrain parts. Try to squeeze into $8k USD. In Asia, it's quite a luxury segment, so fit it accordingly.

marshmallow_12 6y ago

if you can get 150cc for 500 then i'm living in the wrong country. In london they are ideal.

baybal2 6y ago
An Asian 150cc is definitely not what you get in London. It would be the most barebones scooter you can imagine, with motor making less than 10hp, body made from very thin metal, and it will rust to nothing in 5 years.
- oblio 6y ago
  Worse than that, it would probably have 0 particle filters of any kind, so the fumes will probably be horrendous.

haspok 6y ago

That's why we need regulations that will ban the sale of any new non-eletric vehicle in the next 5-10-15 years. Thankfully Europe is going in this direction. Asia not so much.

specialist 6y ago

> I researched the problem extensively... Just curious: Did your efforts identify the sweet spots, given misc costs. Like the "makes sense" price as carbon costs rise and battery cost per amp fall. Factoring weight, distance, speed, recharge times, etc. Why I ask: The most interesting part of the Tesla origin story, to me, is the recognition that laptop battery cost per amp trends would make full-sized EV automobile viable. So they jumped in to catch that wave. Timing is important. Separately: I'm also curious what the market segmentation line is between bike and scooter. eg Maybe bikes can peel away some of the scooter market. I've observed that biked wheel sizes are getting smaller as well as getting cargo features. So why not?

baybal2 6y ago
I did. First is still the same 150cc replacement since the niche is sooo big. Even if you cost as much as best 150cc on the market, somebody will still buy it for electric convenience, so load it up with cheap fancy features too like cruise control, seat heater etc. A good 150cc has around 7-8kw of power, and it is the upper limit of a hub motor, and passive cooling, which you should capitalise on. 4.5kwh battery for 50-60km range. 6kwh premium option for around 80km. Air cooled motor controller for a completely liquid free design. Screechingly, you can fit into $5000-6000 premium 150cc segment.
baybal2 6y ago
Second is 250cc-300cc equivalent. Basically an Nmax, or Xmax killer. From that segment, people do expect real speed, and some semblance of a highway rideability. This definitely needs above 10kw motor, which means liquid cooling, and bye bye hub motor. Batteries need to be MUCH larger since what's the fun of riding on a highway if you can only drive 60km? Think of up to 10-12kwh options. Huge batteries also assume longer charging, or higher currents. Since we already went with liquid cooling for motor, liquid cooling a battery pack is the next logical step, and same is for motor controller. Charger circuit will likely have to be dedicated as you will likely go above 16 cells. Weight will be an issue. If you go above 180kg (Xmax 300) you will scare off a lot of women buyers. The dynamic options of the chassis will also become important, so more will go into non-powertrain parts. Try to squeeze into $8k USD. In Asia, it's quite a luxury segment, so fit it accordingly.