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I have a Renault Twizy. It's a tiny 2-seater car (one behind the other). It's so tiny that the battery is only 6kWh and thus you can only go for about 80km befo

by Faaak 6y ago

I have a Renault Twizy. It's a tiny 2-seater car (one behind the other). It's so tiny that the battery is only 6kWh and thus you can only go for about 80km before needing a charge (which lasts 2h30). But I love it in fact. In my european city it's the best car to go around because you can park anywhere, it costs nothing to operate, and it's so much fun and quiet. Sadly it didn't take on, but other cars are starting to emerge, like the Citroen AMI, which I would've bought if I didn't already had the Twizy.

Neil44 6y ago
I drove a Twizzy around Manchester once it was so cool! Like a little go kart. And got loads of positive attention from passers by. Cold though, mine had no doors!
haspok 6y ago
What's the point of "cars" that can't do at least 50mph/80kmh? You can't really use them in the city, because you get stuck in traffic just like everybody else. Here, a bicycle or a scooter / moped is the way to go - or public transport. You can't really use them on city speedways or circular roads, because you are too slow and hold everyone else up. And you can't use the cycle paths either. And motorways - just forget it. The Twizy has the minimal speed, so you can at least use it around town. But the Citroen is completely useless. Maybe, if you could use the bus/taxi lanes, then maybe... but if everyone had one, then stuck in traffic again.
- adrianN 6y ago
  You don't get wet in a car.
  - oblio 6y ago
    You also don't risk falling off. If you get hit there is some protection between you and whatever hits you. There's frequently AC even in smaller vehicles, so you don't get super hot during summers or freeze during winters. They also have more cargo capacity. Etc, etc.
- 3131s 6y ago
  > But if everyone had one, then stuck in traffic again. Not if the lanes, or the rules for existing lanes, change somewhat. I love these small cars and see them all around where I live, some even smaller than the modern tuk tuks that we get from China. I have looked online at some cool designs I've seen and most are in the $1000-$1500 range new. That sure beats a 2000+ lbs hunk of metal that is so prohibitively expensive to buy, maintain, refuel, and store that only 1/3 of Americans actually own a car, while living in the land of highways and sprawl.
- Dumblydorr 6y ago
  Old people, young children, and the disabled can not just hop on a scooter.
- IkmoIkmo 6y ago
  Price of purchase, price of ownership, price of use, is all a lot lower versus a car. Protection from rain as well as some traffic protection versus scooters/mopeds/bicycles, as well as speed versus a bike or slow moped, especially at certain times of the day and certain areas. Also easier to go with two people and to move more luggage or groceries, than on a bike or scooter or moped. More comfortable, too, e.g. having music on, heating, navigation. Conveniently, no helmet or motorwear requirements. You can lock things away in your car. And finally, because they're smaller, electric and have a higher occupancy percentage, congestion, sound, pollution and parking are all improved if more people would use them versus a car. Most 4-6 seater cars have an average occupancy per trip of <2, which means a ton of extra space and weight being moved around, which means more pollution, costs, sound, as well as more congestion and parking issues. Tiny cars in combination with decent cycling / moped infrastructure, decent public transportation, and a high-tax on personal 4-6 seater cars and SUVs (which still makes economic sense if you actually seat 3-6 people, but don't if you're just sitting alone in your SUV tank) would make the streets safer, less congested, less polluting, less noisy, cheaper and better for the environment. This model where the norm is to sit in traffic in a giant and heavy ICE car seating 4-6 by yourself, makes no sense. These cars have a place, but only for the niche 15% of trips that actually seat that many. Tiny personal cars, and public larger ridesharing cars, makes more sense.
  - fomine3 6y ago
    I believe heating is most problematic for daily micro EVs in winter due to lower battery capacity, but adding capacity makes it not micro.
    - IkmoIkmo 6y ago
      Fair point, should probably have removed that. Still it's so much easier to stay warm if you're out of the wind, with doors closed, and can wear a jacket that doesn't turn you sweaty like biking 20min in warm winter clothes often does for me, due to not working out. To me the biggest downside to all these electric vehicles over bikes is that walking and biking is super healthy, and a city focused on infrastructure to accommodate it (with public-transport for larger trips) is a net benefit. The average American gets 3500 steps or so per day because they get transported everywhere by a vehicle, meaning probably a hundred million Americans get just 1000-2000 per day, when we ought to really be somewhere in the 5000-10000 range. If these things displace (ICE) cars, great. But I've never owned a car in my life and just bike/walk, but with electric vehicles becoming so convenient, cheap and useful, I see it displacing that very soon. A washing machine or water faucet displacing manual labour to clean clothes or get water from a well is great, a machine displacing even just walks and bike rides... not so much.
- alexisread 6y ago
  The Ami is designed specifically to be driven without a licence, from 14 yo. I think those regulations exist in France, Italy and The Netherlands. As such it has a lower speed, it's also as stated weatherproof and can haul a friend / toddler or shopping safely. Tbh the idea of a car is a bit redundant compared to a proper smartrail system. Hang the rail from streetlights to free up ground space. You can run AC power and cat6 in the rail, it's separate from pedestrians so driverless is easy, no parking issues, no need to store power so you can run a pod at 300mph to take a family/ palette point to point, and hanging means you can run it straight into factories or halfway up buildings.
- kps 6y ago
  > Here, a bicycle or a scooter / moped is the way to go This is the street outside my window this morning: https://i.imgur.com/ObMrzMn.jpeg https://i.imgur.com/ObMrzMn.jpeg
  - adrianN 6y ago
    That street is perfectly fine if you have studded tires on your bike. I've ridden in those conditions. A car is more comfortable of course.
- csours 6y ago
  You can own more than one mode of transportation. I have a couple of bikes - one is for trails, one is for roads. I have an ICE vehicle, but I would like to have a small cheap city EV in addition to the ICE vehicle.
SamuelAdams 6y ago
Sadly 2 seater vehicles won't ever happen en mass. There's a lot of people with families who will need at least 3 seats.
- Dumblydorr 6y ago
  So what? The vast majority of vehicle trips have only one driver, 2 seater or 1 seater vehicles need not cater to families. And you're already incorrect, there are already millions of 2 seater vehicles, be it pickups, trucks, sports cars, or extremely compact cars.
  - bluGill 6y ago
    The vast majority of trips don't count. Anyone buying a car is looking at the entire lifecyle of their use. They don't care that 95% of the time they are alone driving to work, the car needs to cover the one time per year they need to pickup grandma, so it better have more room. Two seat pickup trucks are mostly sold to delivery customers. 50 years ago they were more common when you put the kids in the bed, now that isn't considered safe (for good reason) and so those customers buy the extended cab for the family. Sport cars and Compact cars exist, they are a small niche (and often sold to people who have a larger car for "the wife" to drive alone to work)
- sjwright 6y ago
  Maybe not en masse, but the market for households' second vehicles is still pretty big. I think there's a lot to be said for subcompact electric cars appropriately sized for solo commuting and shopping. It's limitations don't matter so much when the primary car can do all the bussing and long distances.
zbrozek 6y ago
I would love to own one. I mostly use a bicycle, but sometimes I buy groceries and I would prefer not to get wet on rainy days. Time to explore options.
- KozmoNau7 6y ago
  I've gotten a decent system down for shopping and rainy days. For the shopping, I have basket on the front of my bike, which takes care of most small amounts of groceries. Next I have two pannier bags that fit on the rear luggage rack, and easily attach/detach for carrying around. A large backpack can be added for shorter rides with little discomfort. Beyond that, I do have a bike trailer, but that is only needed for truly large purchases. For the rain, I've found a common rain poncho to work quite well, by draping the front over the handlebars and sitting on the back part, which keeps it in place. Obviously this is not the end-all be-all solution, but it does make those shopping trips in the rain a bit easier and a lot less wet.

by Faaak 6y ago

Neil44 6y ago

I drove a Twizzy around Manchester once it was so cool! Like a little go kart. And got loads of positive attention from passers by. Cold though, mine had no doors!

haspok 6y ago

What's the point of "cars" that can't do at least 50mph/80kmh? You can't really use them in the city, because you get stuck in traffic just like everybody else. Here, a bicycle or a scooter / moped is the way to go - or public transport. You can't really use them on city speedways or circular roads, because you are too slow and hold everyone else up. And you can't use the cycle paths either. And motorways - just forget it. The Twizy has the minimal speed, so you can at least use it around town. But the Citroen is completely useless. Maybe, if you could use the bus/taxi lanes, then maybe... but if everyone had one, then stuck in traffic again.

adrianN 6y ago
You don't get wet in a car.
- oblio 6y ago
  You also don't risk falling off. If you get hit there is some protection between you and whatever hits you. There's frequently AC even in smaller vehicles, so you don't get super hot during summers or freeze during winters. They also have more cargo capacity. Etc, etc.
3131s 6y ago
> But if everyone had one, then stuck in traffic again. Not if the lanes, or the rules for existing lanes, change somewhat. I love these small cars and see them all around where I live, some even smaller than the modern tuk tuks that we get from China. I have looked online at some cool designs I've seen and most are in the $1000-$1500 range new. That sure beats a 2000+ lbs hunk of metal that is so prohibitively expensive to buy, maintain, refuel, and store that only 1/3 of Americans actually own a car, while living in the land of highways and sprawl.
Dumblydorr 6y ago
Old people, young children, and the disabled can not just hop on a scooter.
IkmoIkmo 6y ago
Price of purchase, price of ownership, price of use, is all a lot lower versus a car. Protection from rain as well as some traffic protection versus scooters/mopeds/bicycles, as well as speed versus a bike or slow moped, especially at certain times of the day and certain areas. Also easier to go with two people and to move more luggage or groceries, than on a bike or scooter or moped. More comfortable, too, e.g. having music on, heating, navigation. Conveniently, no helmet or motorwear requirements. You can lock things away in your car. And finally, because they're smaller, electric and have a higher occupancy percentage, congestion, sound, pollution and parking are all improved if more people would use them versus a car. Most 4-6 seater cars have an average occupancy per trip of <2, which means a ton of extra space and weight being moved around, which means more pollution, costs, sound, as well as more congestion and parking issues. Tiny cars in combination with decent cycling / moped infrastructure, decent public transportation, and a high-tax on personal 4-6 seater cars and SUVs (which still makes economic sense if you actually seat 3-6 people, but don't if you're just sitting alone in your SUV tank) would make the streets safer, less congested, less polluting, less noisy, cheaper and better for the environment. This model where the norm is to sit in traffic in a giant and heavy ICE car seating 4-6 by yourself, makes no sense. These cars have a place, but only for the niche 15% of trips that actually seat that many. Tiny personal cars, and public larger ridesharing cars, makes more sense.
- fomine3 6y ago
  I believe heating is most problematic for daily micro EVs in winter due to lower battery capacity, but adding capacity makes it not micro.
  - IkmoIkmo 6y ago
    Fair point, should probably have removed that. Still it's so much easier to stay warm if you're out of the wind, with doors closed, and can wear a jacket that doesn't turn you sweaty like biking 20min in warm winter clothes often does for me, due to not working out. To me the biggest downside to all these electric vehicles over bikes is that walking and biking is super healthy, and a city focused on infrastructure to accommodate it (with public-transport for larger trips) is a net benefit. The average American gets 3500 steps or so per day because they get transported everywhere by a vehicle, meaning probably a hundred million Americans get just 1000-2000 per day, when we ought to really be somewhere in the 5000-10000 range. If these things displace (ICE) cars, great. But I've never owned a car in my life and just bike/walk, but with electric vehicles becoming so convenient, cheap and useful, I see it displacing that very soon. A washing machine or water faucet displacing manual labour to clean clothes or get water from a well is great, a machine displacing even just walks and bike rides... not so much.
alexisread 6y ago
The Ami is designed specifically to be driven without a licence, from 14 yo. I think those regulations exist in France, Italy and The Netherlands. As such it has a lower speed, it's also as stated weatherproof and can haul a friend / toddler or shopping safely. Tbh the idea of a car is a bit redundant compared to a proper smartrail system. Hang the rail from streetlights to free up ground space. You can run AC power and cat6 in the rail, it's separate from pedestrians so driverless is easy, no parking issues, no need to store power so you can run a pod at 300mph to take a family/ palette point to point, and hanging means you can run it straight into factories or halfway up buildings.
kps 6y ago
> Here, a bicycle or a scooter / moped is the way to go This is the street outside my window this morning: https://i.imgur.com/ObMrzMn.jpeg https://i.imgur.com/ObMrzMn.jpeg
- adrianN 6y ago
  That street is perfectly fine if you have studded tires on your bike. I've ridden in those conditions. A car is more comfortable of course.
csours 6y ago
You can own more than one mode of transportation. I have a couple of bikes - one is for trails, one is for roads. I have an ICE vehicle, but I would like to have a small cheap city EV in addition to the ICE vehicle.

SamuelAdams 6y ago

Sadly 2 seater vehicles won't ever happen en mass. There's a lot of people with families who will need at least 3 seats.

Dumblydorr 6y ago
So what? The vast majority of vehicle trips have only one driver, 2 seater or 1 seater vehicles need not cater to families. And you're already incorrect, there are already millions of 2 seater vehicles, be it pickups, trucks, sports cars, or extremely compact cars.
- bluGill 6y ago
  The vast majority of trips don't count. Anyone buying a car is looking at the entire lifecyle of their use. They don't care that 95% of the time they are alone driving to work, the car needs to cover the one time per year they need to pickup grandma, so it better have more room. Two seat pickup trucks are mostly sold to delivery customers. 50 years ago they were more common when you put the kids in the bed, now that isn't considered safe (for good reason) and so those customers buy the extended cab for the family. Sport cars and Compact cars exist, they are a small niche (and often sold to people who have a larger car for "the wife" to drive alone to work)
sjwright 6y ago
Maybe not en masse, but the market for households' second vehicles is still pretty big. I think there's a lot to be said for subcompact electric cars appropriately sized for solo commuting and shopping. It's limitations don't matter so much when the primary car can do all the bussing and long distances.

zbrozek 6y ago

I would love to own one. I mostly use a bicycle, but sometimes I buy groceries and I would prefer not to get wet on rainy days. Time to explore options.

KozmoNau7 6y ago
I've gotten a decent system down for shopping and rainy days. For the shopping, I have basket on the front of my bike, which takes care of most small amounts of groceries. Next I have two pannier bags that fit on the rear luggage rack, and easily attach/detach for carrying around. A large backpack can be added for shorter rides with little discomfort. Beyond that, I do have a bike trailer, but that is only needed for truly large purchases. For the rain, I've found a common rain poncho to work quite well, by draping the front over the handlebars and sitting on the back part, which keeps it in place. Obviously this is not the end-all be-all solution, but it does make those shopping trips in the rain a bit easier and a lot less wet.