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We all know what these are. It's precursors to common plastics, and byproducts of their decay. Majority of these have been grandfathered as GRAS "generally reco

We all know what these are. It's precursors to common plastics, and byproducts of their decay. Majority of these have been grandfathered as GRAS "generally recognized as safe" by the FDA when environmental laws first went live in the 60s. The onus is therefore much higher, it is on you to prove they are harmful, instead of requiring producers to prove they are safe. Nobody wants to stick their neck out because the petrochemicals lobby will go after you, your career and your family. The only way to get this fixed is to require producers to conduct testing to prove they do not disrupt endocrine systems of not only humans, but other animals, insects and so on. I'm just not sure the political will is there.

DoingIsLearning 6y ago
The most reasonable work around is to force producers to label their product. There are many vegetable packing containers which do not specify which plastic type they are. There are thousands of cleaning products and hygiene products that hide these compounds in the 'Parfums' label. Forcing manufacturers to exaustively list composition would at least give people the data to make an informed decision when buying a product. Also we really need to we stop watering down all these health and environmental protection regulations because of lobbyists.
- adrianN 6y ago
  No, labeling things does exactly nothing for consumers, because most of them don't have a Phd in endocrinology so they don't have the faintest idea what to do with the extra information. The most reasonable workaround is forcing producers to prove safety of the chemicals they use before using them.
  - jk7tarYZAQNpTQa 6y ago
    > labeling things does exactly nothing for consumers, because most of them don't have a Phd in endocrinology They don't need to. We, as technologists and scientists, can develop solutions to make the decision process very easy, almost automatic. A smartphone app that reads a barcode and produces a color-coded safety value, from green to red, is all a consumer needs to shop safely. Or a website containing whitelists or ordered lists, "the safest shampoo is X". Then the free market will theoretically make manufacturers compete to be at the top of that list. The problem is, such lists/apps can't be made until manufacturers disclose every single ingredient and chemical they use. And that won't be done until legislators force them to.
    - adrianN 6y ago
      Technology is not the solution to everything. Almost nobody wants to go to a store and consult their phone for every item they purchase and do a complex optimization problem involving safety, ecological footprint, socially responsible supply chains, the dozen other problems we want to burden "informed consumers" with, their personal valuation function and the purchase price.
      - jk7tarYZAQNpTQa 6y ago
        > Technology is not the solution to everything It's not the solution, but in many situations (like this one) it helps the consumer make an informed decision overwhelmingly easier and faster. > Almost nobody wants to go to a store and consult their phone for every item they purchase How are you so sure about it? Have you read a survey? Could you please cite it? You don't need to do it everytime, just the first time, and then settle on a brand for a given product, indefinitely. People already use similar apps for a health summary. And you don't need to do it all at once, it can be done incrementally. "Today I'm going to look for the best frozen lasagna". It takes 30 seconds to scan every option, and then some extra seconds to decide which one works best for you. The next time you go to the store you spend your 30 secs deciding on a frozen pizza brand. > the dozen other problems we want to burden "informed consumers" with So what do you propose? Assume the public is ignorant and just doesn't care? As individuals we have a responsibility to make informed decisions, award manufacturers with our money on an informed manner, and help other become and stay informed. And as technologists we have a much bigger responsibility to use technology as a fundamental tool in the process.
- inter_netuser 6y ago
  It's labeled now, and what good is that? I am sure you've seen "sodium benzoate" if you ever read these. Not until someone actually finds free benzene in the drinks, giving rise to serious liability on the part of the companies, absolutely nothing gets done. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benzene_in_soft_drinks https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benzene_in_soft_drinks
Lammy 6y ago
> when environmental laws first went live in the 60s. I love our Earth and want to protect it as much as possible, and it's incredibly frustrating that restricting housing construction, globalizing pollution emission so it's out-of-sight-and-mind, and economically wrecking large swaths of middle America are the only things our environmental laws seem to be consistently good at :/
- amanaplanacanal 6y ago
  It’s easy to forget how much cleaner our air and water are now, though.
  - Lammy 6y ago
    Clean enough for a lot of us to ignore that humanity's shared CO2 footprint is worse than ever because it happens Somewhere Else and doesn't (yet) impact us day to day: https://keelingcurve.ucsd.edu/ https://keelingcurve.ucsd.edu/
hilbert42 6y ago
"Nobody wants to stick their neck out because the petrochemicals lobby will go after you, your career and your family." Yeah. That's more blunt and succinct than I put it, and you're absolutely correct. It's a damning indictment on our laws, our governance and even our society that this can actually happen. These days, techies and engineers fear to speak out and it takes a very brave person to be a whistleblower—and when they are, they're even ostracized by work colleagues who know the facts just as well as they do. Laws have to be strengthened and new ones enacted but unfortunately there seems a snowball's of that happening.

DoingIsLearning 6y ago

The most reasonable work around is to force producers to label their product. There are many vegetable packing containers which do not specify which plastic type they are. There are thousands of cleaning products and hygiene products that hide these compounds in the 'Parfums' label. Forcing manufacturers to exaustively list composition would at least give people the data to make an informed decision when buying a product. Also we really need to we stop watering down all these health and environmental protection regulations because of lobbyists.

adrianN 6y ago
No, labeling things does exactly nothing for consumers, because most of them don't have a Phd in endocrinology so they don't have the faintest idea what to do with the extra information. The most reasonable workaround is forcing producers to prove safety of the chemicals they use before using them.
- jk7tarYZAQNpTQa 6y ago
  > labeling things does exactly nothing for consumers, because most of them don't have a Phd in endocrinology They don't need to. We, as technologists and scientists, can develop solutions to make the decision process very easy, almost automatic. A smartphone app that reads a barcode and produces a color-coded safety value, from green to red, is all a consumer needs to shop safely. Or a website containing whitelists or ordered lists, "the safest shampoo is X". Then the free market will theoretically make manufacturers compete to be at the top of that list. The problem is, such lists/apps can't be made until manufacturers disclose every single ingredient and chemical they use. And that won't be done until legislators force them to.
  - adrianN 6y ago
    Technology is not the solution to everything. Almost nobody wants to go to a store and consult their phone for every item they purchase and do a complex optimization problem involving safety, ecological footprint, socially responsible supply chains, the dozen other problems we want to burden "informed consumers" with, their personal valuation function and the purchase price.
    - jk7tarYZAQNpTQa 6y ago
      > Technology is not the solution to everything It's not the solution, but in many situations (like this one) it helps the consumer make an informed decision overwhelmingly easier and faster. > Almost nobody wants to go to a store and consult their phone for every item they purchase How are you so sure about it? Have you read a survey? Could you please cite it? You don't need to do it everytime, just the first time, and then settle on a brand for a given product, indefinitely. People already use similar apps for a health summary. And you don't need to do it all at once, it can be done incrementally. "Today I'm going to look for the best frozen lasagna". It takes 30 seconds to scan every option, and then some extra seconds to decide which one works best for you. The next time you go to the store you spend your 30 secs deciding on a frozen pizza brand. > the dozen other problems we want to burden "informed consumers" with So what do you propose? Assume the public is ignorant and just doesn't care? As individuals we have a responsibility to make informed decisions, award manufacturers with our money on an informed manner, and help other become and stay informed. And as technologists we have a much bigger responsibility to use technology as a fundamental tool in the process.
inter_netuser 6y ago
It's labeled now, and what good is that? I am sure you've seen "sodium benzoate" if you ever read these. Not until someone actually finds free benzene in the drinks, giving rise to serious liability on the part of the companies, absolutely nothing gets done. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benzene_in_soft_drinks https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benzene_in_soft_drinks

Lammy 6y ago

> when environmental laws first went live in the 60s. I love our Earth and want to protect it as much as possible, and it's incredibly frustrating that restricting housing construction, globalizing pollution emission so it's out-of-sight-and-mind, and economically wrecking large swaths of middle America are the only things our environmental laws seem to be consistently good at :/

amanaplanacanal 6y ago
It’s easy to forget how much cleaner our air and water are now, though.
- Lammy 6y ago
  Clean enough for a lot of us to ignore that humanity's shared CO2 footprint is worse than ever because it happens Somewhere Else and doesn't (yet) impact us day to day: https://keelingcurve.ucsd.edu/ https://keelingcurve.ucsd.edu/

hilbert42 6y ago

"Nobody wants to stick their neck out because the petrochemicals lobby will go after you, your career and your family." Yeah. That's more blunt and succinct than I put it, and you're absolutely correct. It's a damning indictment on our laws, our governance and even our society that this can actually happen. These days, techies and engineers fear to speak out and it takes a very brave person to be a whistleblower—and when they are, they're even ostracized by work colleagues who know the facts just as well as they do. Laws have to be strengthened and new ones enacted but unfortunately there seems a snowball's of that happening.