4 ms·

And to think Nintendo wants these to end up in a landfill. Imagine if jailbreaking video game consoles (that is, modifying hardware that you own however you wa

by bogwog 6y ago

And to think Nintendo wants these to end up in a landfill. Imagine if jailbreaking video game consoles (that is, modifying hardware that you own however you want), were actually legal. Old consoles like these could continue to provide value to owners via competing app stores, free and open source apps/games, cool hardware features like the OP, etc. All of that could happen without infringing on Nintendo's rights, or requiring them to do anything in any way. But the DMCA doesn't allow it.

LeoPanthera 6y ago
> Imagine if jailbreaking video game consoles were actually legal Is it not?
- denkmoon 6y ago
  Obviously depends where you are. DMCA legislates against circumvention of copyright protection mechanisms.
  - surround 6y ago
    So if I make a modification to add “competing app stores, free and open source apps/games, cool hardware features,” how does this violate DMCA?
    - SilverRed 6y ago
      If you have to break DRM features to add your app store then you are in violation of the DMCA technically. But there is no reason you should care if you are outside of the US
      - DanBC 6y ago
        Circumvention of technical measures is part of law in many countries. See this example from the UK: https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/technological-protection-measures-tpms-complaints-process https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/technological-pro... > Technological Protection Measures (TPMs) (also known as copy protection measures or DRM) are often used to protect copyright works, for example, through encryption on DVDs. TPMs can have a important role in enabling copyright owners (rightsholders) to offer content to consumers in different ways, as well as protecting against unlawful copying (piracy). UK law protects the right of copyright owners to use TPMs to protect their works, and circumvention of such technology is illegal.
- MarioMan 6y ago
  It’s an old article, but it’s laid out nicely here: https://www.macworld.com/article/1152935/jailbreak_exemption.html https://www.macworld.com/article/1152935/jailbreak_exemption... Essentially, bypassing DRM is a violation of the DCMA unless it has received an exemption from the government. Exemptions must be reevaluated every three years else they expire.
deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
Wowfunhappy 6y ago
To that extent that Nintendo has any influence in this area, I'd say they're quite supportive of people using their old hardware. Many Nintendo games display discontinued devices prominently (WarioWare, Animal Crossing), and there are stories on Twitter of Nintendo phone reps helping troubleshoot NES and SNES hardware issues. Nintendo won't support people pirating their games, but as much as I think copyright lasts too long, this isn't exactly a surprising position from a game manufacturer.
- bogwog 6y ago
  > To that extent that Nintendo has any influence in this area, I'd say they're quite supportive of people using their old hardware. Nintendo is a member of the Entertainment Software Association (https://www.theesa.com/ https://www.theesa.com/), which AFAIK is the main entity lobbying to keep console jailbreaking illegal. Not to mention the fact that Nintendo shuts down online services and digital stores for old consoles, which means that you can't even download games you've purchased anymore. Also, the issue isn't about whether Nintendo wants people to play old games on old hardware, it's that Nintendo doesn't want you to play new software on old hardware, and that they're actually able to enforce this through the DMCA's arbitrary special restrictions for video game consoles (by comparison, jailbreaking phones is perfectly legal under the DMCA) That both suppresses competition, directly hurts consumers, and is just wasteful.
  - Wowfunhappy 6y ago
    But I don't think a logical extension from that is "Nintendo wants these to end up in a landfill."
    - bogwog 6y ago
      Why not? * If these consoles have no more utility, people will throw them away, and they will end up in a landfill. When this happens, they will want to buy a new console to play new games, and Nintendo will sell it to them. * With more consoles in the trash, there will be less circulating in the world, creating a shortage and inflating the value of old IP. They can profit off of this by re-releasing or re-mastering those old games on new consoles (until those too are deprecated and the cycle repeats) * Nintendo is taking actions to deteriorate the utility of peoples' old consoles. They do this by halting development of new games for it, shutting down online services, and shutting down digital sales of games. * Nintendo is funding a lobbyist group that is fighting to prevent consumers from modifying their hardware to extend its useful life * If people are allowed to jailbreak their console, a "homebrew" software community may take off, which could lead to customers willing to pay money for software by third party publishers; aka, competition for Nintendo within their own walled garden. Based on those observations, it's obvious what Nintendo's position on the issue is. The path of least resistance and most profit is to encourage (or force) customers to throw their old consoles away and buy new ones. Maybe they don't care if it specifically goes to a landfill, but they certainly want it in the trash.
bumbada 6y ago
As someone who jailbroke his DS in order to program and run homebrew on it, it was far from ideal. You needed so many tricks in order to run those fast enough, like removing floating point code and replacing it with integer replacement for the different CPUs it had. All the API had to be reverse engineered. Programming mobile phones,or raspberrys is much better and you have much more freedom.
- djmips 6y ago
  Pis you have a point but phones are far from having 'freedom'
  - bogwog 6y ago
    How many people own a raspberry pi with a screen (or two), battery, wireless connectivity, and enclosure with built-in digital/analog controls? Probably less than 154 million[1] 1: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_best-selling_game_consoles https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_best-selling_game_cons...
- bogwog 6y ago
  Just because it's harder to develop on than modern devices doesn't mean that there aren't people who know how to do it/want to do it. If I knew that I could sell my indie game on the Nintendo DS, which sold 154 million units and a huge number of them are likely still circulating around, I'd do it in a heartbeat. But more importantly, the only thing that matters is the end-user experience. The people playing games aren't going to care if the developer had to wrestle with some funky toolchain and weird hardware quirks. They just want new games for their old, but still fully functional console.

by bogwog 6y ago

LeoPanthera 6y ago

> Imagine if jailbreaking video game consoles were actually legal Is it not?

denkmoon 6y ago
Obviously depends where you are. DMCA legislates against circumvention of copyright protection mechanisms.
- surround 6y ago
  So if I make a modification to add “competing app stores, free and open source apps/games, cool hardware features,” how does this violate DMCA?
  - SilverRed 6y ago
    If you have to break DRM features to add your app store then you are in violation of the DMCA technically. But there is no reason you should care if you are outside of the US
    - DanBC 6y ago
      Circumvention of technical measures is part of law in many countries. See this example from the UK: https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/technological-protection-measures-tpms-complaints-process https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/technological-pro... > Technological Protection Measures (TPMs) (also known as copy protection measures or DRM) are often used to protect copyright works, for example, through encryption on DVDs. TPMs can have a important role in enabling copyright owners (rightsholders) to offer content to consumers in different ways, as well as protecting against unlawful copying (piracy). UK law protects the right of copyright owners to use TPMs to protect their works, and circumvention of such technology is illegal.
MarioMan 6y ago
It’s an old article, but it’s laid out nicely here: https://www.macworld.com/article/1152935/jailbreak_exemption.html https://www.macworld.com/article/1152935/jailbreak_exemption... Essentially, bypassing DRM is a violation of the DCMA unless it has received an exemption from the government. Exemptions must be reevaluated every three years else they expire.

deleted 6y ago

[deleted]

Wowfunhappy 6y ago

To that extent that Nintendo has any influence in this area, I'd say they're quite supportive of people using their old hardware. Many Nintendo games display discontinued devices prominently (WarioWare, Animal Crossing), and there are stories on Twitter of Nintendo phone reps helping troubleshoot NES and SNES hardware issues. Nintendo won't support people pirating their games, but as much as I think copyright lasts too long, this isn't exactly a surprising position from a game manufacturer.

bogwog 6y ago
> To that extent that Nintendo has any influence in this area, I'd say they're quite supportive of people using their old hardware. Nintendo is a member of the Entertainment Software Association (https://www.theesa.com/ https://www.theesa.com/), which AFAIK is the main entity lobbying to keep console jailbreaking illegal. Not to mention the fact that Nintendo shuts down online services and digital stores for old consoles, which means that you can't even download games you've purchased anymore. Also, the issue isn't about whether Nintendo wants people to play old games on old hardware, it's that Nintendo doesn't want you to play new software on old hardware, and that they're actually able to enforce this through the DMCA's arbitrary special restrictions for video game consoles (by comparison, jailbreaking phones is perfectly legal under the DMCA) That both suppresses competition, directly hurts consumers, and is just wasteful.
- Wowfunhappy 6y ago
  But I don't think a logical extension from that is "Nintendo wants these to end up in a landfill."
  - bogwog 6y ago
    Why not? * If these consoles have no more utility, people will throw them away, and they will end up in a landfill. When this happens, they will want to buy a new console to play new games, and Nintendo will sell it to them. * With more consoles in the trash, there will be less circulating in the world, creating a shortage and inflating the value of old IP. They can profit off of this by re-releasing or re-mastering those old games on new consoles (until those too are deprecated and the cycle repeats) * Nintendo is taking actions to deteriorate the utility of peoples' old consoles. They do this by halting development of new games for it, shutting down online services, and shutting down digital sales of games. * Nintendo is funding a lobbyist group that is fighting to prevent consumers from modifying their hardware to extend its useful life * If people are allowed to jailbreak their console, a "homebrew" software community may take off, which could lead to customers willing to pay money for software by third party publishers; aka, competition for Nintendo within their own walled garden. Based on those observations, it's obvious what Nintendo's position on the issue is. The path of least resistance and most profit is to encourage (or force) customers to throw their old consoles away and buy new ones. Maybe they don't care if it specifically goes to a landfill, but they certainly want it in the trash.

bumbada 6y ago

As someone who jailbroke his DS in order to program and run homebrew on it, it was far from ideal. You needed so many tricks in order to run those fast enough, like removing floating point code and replacing it with integer replacement for the different CPUs it had. All the API had to be reverse engineered. Programming mobile phones,or raspberrys is much better and you have much more freedom.

djmips 6y ago
Pis you have a point but phones are far from having 'freedom'
- bogwog 6y ago
  How many people own a raspberry pi with a screen (or two), battery, wireless connectivity, and enclosure with built-in digital/analog controls? Probably less than 154 million[1] 1: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_best-selling_game_consoles https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_best-selling_game_cons...
bogwog 6y ago
Just because it's harder to develop on than modern devices doesn't mean that there aren't people who know how to do it/want to do it. If I knew that I could sell my indie game on the Nintendo DS, which sold 154 million units and a huge number of them are likely still circulating around, I'd do it in a heartbeat. But more importantly, the only thing that matters is the end-user experience. The people playing games aren't going to care if the developer had to wrestle with some funky toolchain and weird hardware quirks. They just want new games for their old, but still fully functional console.