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> Also, a decent newsreader is still ahead of all modern browser-based software by a mile when it comes to following many discussion threads. For me, nothing to

by beej71 15y ago

> Also, a decent newsreader is still ahead of all modern browser-based software by a mile when it comes to following many discussion threads. For me, nothing today compares with trn. You're far from the only one who feels this way. I'm not quite sure why it is, but I think it's because trn's tree is basically drawn "orthogonally" (if I might use that word), with siblings stacked vertically, and children moving off to the right. A "normal" newsreader uses the standard indented list, which gives the whole thread a "meandering set of diagonals" shape, and has a less strong visual connection between siblings (which is an important connection, because they're all replying to the same parent.) So I was just looking for a screenshot of trn for people who didn't know what it looked like, and I found this blog entry talking about exactly this (with screenshot): http://cafbit.com/entry/the_lost_art_of_threaded http://cafbit.com/entry/the_lost_art_of_threaded

yaakov34 15y ago
Yeah, but it's by no means just that. I was thinking of the simplest things, like messages you've read not showing up again (unless asked for), using a single key to advance to the next message, pressing a key to mark a thread read. The advanced threading and killfile features were great, of course, but the web interface is just so fantastically less convenient for basic stuff - it's unbelievable. Imagine going to the HN front page, clicking on all the threads you're not going to follow and marking them read or killed (meaning they don't show up again), and then clicking on the threads you want brings you to the last UNREAD messages in those threads. And you press space to go the next unread message. Imagine all forums being like that. Give me that, and I don't care if you give me a vertical or a horizontal tree display (tho' I prefer the trn way). It seems so simple that I almost can't believe I'm not missing something subtle.
- joe_bleau 15y ago
  Exactly! Even HN (one of the best web forums, IMO), is still clunky compared to usenet. Usenet made it so easy and efficient to follow topics you were interested in while ignoring the crap. I think I'd be willing to give up the ability to upvote comments/submissions in exchange for a good usenet interface to HN.
  - Natsu 15y ago
    > I think I'd be willing to give up the ability to upvote comments/submissions in exchange for a good usenet interface to HN. Given that this is HN. I wonder how long before someone implements something like that for fun.
- btilly 15y ago
  The simple things that you're describing are all in gmail.
  - swaits 15y ago
    Not really, no.
    - btilly 15y ago
      Read http://mail.google.com/support/bin/answer.py?answer=6594 http://mail.google.com/support/bin/answer.py?answer=6594 and then tell me which of the simple described features are not in gmail. Be specific so that I can be specific in explaining how it is, in fact, present. (Do remember that gmail's keyboard shortcuts were designed by people who had used Usenet extensively.)
      - foobarqux 15y ago
        How about "T K" (mark current message and children as read) and "A T" (go up-thread to original post) in gnus. If your claim is that Gmail implements most of the "simple" features present in powerful news-readers then it is manifestly absurd.
        btilly 15y ago
        My claim was that the list of things in http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2622662 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2622662 are in gmail. Of course real newsreaders have a lot of features that gmail doesn't.
  - yaakov34 15y ago
    Have to disagree, even though I'm a big gmail user and I do like it way better than the other webmail systems. A thread in gmail looks more like a pile than a real thread - it's nowhere near as smooth as navigating in a newsreader. It presents newer messages on top, and I sometimes find myself confused when I can't tell if certain text is new or quoted in an old message. And there is no "kill thread" - you can set up a filter, but that's a longish operation and I don't think it lets you say "I don't want to follow this particular discussion" as opposed to "filter out this subject/author". It all comes down to gmail being a mail system, not a forum system. And goog's forum system, groups, is pretty sad.
carmen 15y ago
a structure of a thread is informative in itself http://joey.kitenet.net/blog/entry/thread_patterns/ http://joey.kitenet.net/blog/entry/thread_patterns/ or a somewhat modernized take http://blog.whats-your.name/post/2011/06/02/pas-de-titre http://blog.whats-your.name/post/2011/06/02/pas-de-titre
patrickgzill 15y ago
Sounds like a weekend project - adapt trn style reading to something that scrapes HN and keeps track for the user of all those things... heck I would pay $5/month for such a webapp.
- jacques_chester 15y ago
  I remember folk writing such apps for Slashdot. Since 1997 we've known that HTTP+HTML is the worst way to achieve any task online. It is, however, the most popular.
gwern 15y ago
Wow, that links is interesting. I used to do a bit of Usenet in the early 2000s - some groups are still alive - and while I'd heard of trn, I didn't know that it did anything special. The screenshot dispels my ignorance.

by beej71 15y ago

yaakov34 15y ago

Yeah, but it's by no means just that. I was thinking of the simplest things, like messages you've read not showing up again (unless asked for), using a single key to advance to the next message, pressing a key to mark a thread read. The advanced threading and killfile features were great, of course, but the web interface is just so fantastically less convenient for basic stuff - it's unbelievable. Imagine going to the HN front page, clicking on all the threads you're not going to follow and marking them read or killed (meaning they don't show up again), and then clicking on the threads you want brings you to the last UNREAD messages in those threads. And you press space to go the next unread message. Imagine all forums being like that. Give me that, and I don't care if you give me a vertical or a horizontal tree display (tho' I prefer the trn way). It seems so simple that I almost can't believe I'm not missing something subtle.

joe_bleau 15y ago
Exactly! Even HN (one of the best web forums, IMO), is still clunky compared to usenet. Usenet made it so easy and efficient to follow topics you were interested in while ignoring the crap. I think I'd be willing to give up the ability to upvote comments/submissions in exchange for a good usenet interface to HN.
- Natsu 15y ago
  > I think I'd be willing to give up the ability to upvote comments/submissions in exchange for a good usenet interface to HN. Given that this is HN. I wonder how long before someone implements something like that for fun.
btilly 15y ago
The simple things that you're describing are all in gmail.
- swaits 15y ago
  Not really, no.
  - btilly 15y ago
    Read http://mail.google.com/support/bin/answer.py?answer=6594 http://mail.google.com/support/bin/answer.py?answer=6594 and then tell me which of the simple described features are not in gmail. Be specific so that I can be specific in explaining how it is, in fact, present. (Do remember that gmail's keyboard shortcuts were designed by people who had used Usenet extensively.)
    - foobarqux 15y ago
      How about "T K" (mark current message and children as read) and "A T" (go up-thread to original post) in gnus. If your claim is that Gmail implements most of the "simple" features present in powerful news-readers then it is manifestly absurd.
      - btilly 15y ago
        My claim was that the list of things in http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2622662 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2622662 are in gmail. Of course real newsreaders have a lot of features that gmail doesn't.
- yaakov34 15y ago
  Have to disagree, even though I'm a big gmail user and I do like it way better than the other webmail systems. A thread in gmail looks more like a pile than a real thread - it's nowhere near as smooth as navigating in a newsreader. It presents newer messages on top, and I sometimes find myself confused when I can't tell if certain text is new or quoted in an old message. And there is no "kill thread" - you can set up a filter, but that's a longish operation and I don't think it lets you say "I don't want to follow this particular discussion" as opposed to "filter out this subject/author". It all comes down to gmail being a mail system, not a forum system. And goog's forum system, groups, is pretty sad.

carmen 15y ago

a structure of a thread is informative in itself http://joey.kitenet.net/blog/entry/thread_patterns/ http://joey.kitenet.net/blog/entry/thread_patterns/ or a somewhat modernized take http://blog.whats-your.name/post/2011/06/02/pas-de-titre http://blog.whats-your.name/post/2011/06/02/pas-de-titre

patrickgzill 15y ago

Sounds like a weekend project - adapt trn style reading to something that scrapes HN and keeps track for the user of all those things... heck I would pay $5/month for such a webapp.

jacques_chester 15y ago
I remember folk writing such apps for Slashdot. Since 1997 we've known that HTTP+HTML is the worst way to achieve any task online. It is, however, the most popular.

gwern 15y ago

Wow, that links is interesting. I used to do a bit of Usenet in the early 2000s - some groups are still alive - and while I'd heard of trn, I didn't know that it did anything special. The screenshot dispels my ignorance.