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That sounds super convenient. Wish we would have something similar in the EU. Edi: yes, I know Ukraine is in Europe, I meant EU

croes 6y ago
Convenient ok, but is it secure? https://globalvoices.org/2021/02/11/security-concerns-and-legal-ambiguities-threaten-the-future-of-ukraines-state-in-a-smartphone/ https://globalvoices.org/2021/02/11/security-concerns-and-le...
- ChuckNorris89 6y ago
  As a security engineer, nothing civillian-facing is ever 100% secure, it all depends how much resources your attackers have. When modelling your security profile, it's always a matter of "when", not "if" your widget can get hacked. Most you can do is deter black-hats, but not much you can do against well funded state actors.
  - jacquesm 6y ago
    I'm fine with the 'well funded state actors' being able to do this, I'm not fine with every two bit hacker having access to all that data.
  - gbear605 6y ago
    That’s why the only solution is to not digitize.
    - ChuckNorris89 6y ago
      Except that most governments have migrated to digitalization of many services. Do you do your tax return in your browser or would you prefer to file endless paper forms and go in person and wait in lines?
      - mdpopescu 6y ago
        As a general rule, I found that when institutions make it more easier for you to give them money, they don't do it for your benefit :)
        ChuckNorris89 6y ago
        True, but you have to pay your taxes anyway. Would you like to do it from the comfort of your home in whatever time you like or would you rather do it in person, standing in line for maybe hours and dealing with sour clerks? I know which option I would go for.
danielscrubs 6y ago
Ukraine is in Europe.
vletal 6y ago
Did you mean EU? Ukraine is on the European continent.
meibo 6y ago
Germany has this for ID cards and passports, albeit via NFC, it's just not very widely used yet. I actually thought that this is an European standard as I seem to remember seeing it used in other airports in Europe, but it's been a while since I last went to fly anywhere. Here's quite a bit of official technical info about it: https://www.bsi.bund.de/EN/Topics/ElectrIDDocuments/German-eID/german-eID_node.html https://www.bsi.bund.de/EN/Topics/ElectrIDDocuments/German-e...
jacquesm 6y ago
I wish we will never have something similar in the EU. That kind of system is asking for abuse. Please no, let's keep the passports, driver licenses and birth certificates on old fashioned reasonably hard to forge paper with holograms and securely printed (and perforated, check your EU passport hard page against the light).
- ChuckNorris89 6y ago
  >hard to forge paper Except that history has proven the plenty of crime organizations can fake those really well and pass undetected and maybe you missed it, but the authenticity of your passport or any ID document is proven and validated by the secure cryptographic element in the chip within it, not the fancy features in the plastic/paper of the document, that's why chipped passports are now the norm. Fancy physical documents without security chips are inherently less secure, not more. If that same security chip, that passes government security certifications, think Common Criteria level EAL 6, is in a piece of paper and plastic called "passport" or a piece of metal and glass called "smart-phone", what's the difference?
  - kergonath 6y ago
    > Except that history has proven the plenty of crime organizations can fake those really well and pass undetected and maybe you missed it, but the authenticity of your passport or any ID document is proven and validated by the secure cryptographic element in the chip within it, not the fancy features in the plastic/paper of the document, that's why chipped passports are now the norm. In any case, the forging scales much worse than just getting your hands on a database when you have to forge a physics document with decent security features. It’ll never be 100% secure, but then neither will be a virtual passport. > Fancy physical documents without security chips are inherently less secure, not more. All new and future identification documents will have a chip anyway. The baseline is not just a piece of paper. You start from the premise that a physical document is trivial to forge, therefore it is not an improvement over a purely numerical one. But that’s circular logic. In reality, it is more difficult to steal, copy and re-sell a physical passport than a cryptographic key.

croes 6y ago

Convenient ok, but is it secure? https://globalvoices.org/2021/02/11/security-concerns-and-legal-ambiguities-threaten-the-future-of-ukraines-state-in-a-smartphone/ https://globalvoices.org/2021/02/11/security-concerns-and-le...

ChuckNorris89 6y ago
As a security engineer, nothing civillian-facing is ever 100% secure, it all depends how much resources your attackers have. When modelling your security profile, it's always a matter of "when", not "if" your widget can get hacked. Most you can do is deter black-hats, but not much you can do against well funded state actors.
- jacquesm 6y ago
  I'm fine with the 'well funded state actors' being able to do this, I'm not fine with every two bit hacker having access to all that data.
- gbear605 6y ago
  That’s why the only solution is to not digitize.
  - ChuckNorris89 6y ago
    Except that most governments have migrated to digitalization of many services. Do you do your tax return in your browser or would you prefer to file endless paper forms and go in person and wait in lines?
    - mdpopescu 6y ago
      As a general rule, I found that when institutions make it more easier for you to give them money, they don't do it for your benefit :)
      - ChuckNorris89 6y ago
        True, but you have to pay your taxes anyway. Would you like to do it from the comfort of your home in whatever time you like or would you rather do it in person, standing in line for maybe hours and dealing with sour clerks? I know which option I would go for.

danielscrubs 6y ago

Ukraine is in Europe.

vletal 6y ago

Did you mean EU? Ukraine is on the European continent.

meibo 6y ago

Germany has this for ID cards and passports, albeit via NFC, it's just not very widely used yet. I actually thought that this is an European standard as I seem to remember seeing it used in other airports in Europe, but it's been a while since I last went to fly anywhere. Here's quite a bit of official technical info about it: https://www.bsi.bund.de/EN/Topics/ElectrIDDocuments/German-eID/german-eID_node.html https://www.bsi.bund.de/EN/Topics/ElectrIDDocuments/German-e...

jacquesm 6y ago

I wish we will never have something similar in the EU. That kind of system is asking for abuse. Please no, let's keep the passports, driver licenses and birth certificates on old fashioned reasonably hard to forge paper with holograms and securely printed (and perforated, check your EU passport hard page against the light).

ChuckNorris89 6y ago
>hard to forge paper Except that history has proven the plenty of crime organizations can fake those really well and pass undetected and maybe you missed it, but the authenticity of your passport or any ID document is proven and validated by the secure cryptographic element in the chip within it, not the fancy features in the plastic/paper of the document, that's why chipped passports are now the norm. Fancy physical documents without security chips are inherently less secure, not more. If that same security chip, that passes government security certifications, think Common Criteria level EAL 6, is in a piece of paper and plastic called "passport" or a piece of metal and glass called "smart-phone", what's the difference?
- kergonath 6y ago
  > Except that history has proven the plenty of crime organizations can fake those really well and pass undetected and maybe you missed it, but the authenticity of your passport or any ID document is proven and validated by the secure cryptographic element in the chip within it, not the fancy features in the plastic/paper of the document, that's why chipped passports are now the norm. In any case, the forging scales much worse than just getting your hands on a database when you have to forge a physics document with decent security features. It’ll never be 100% secure, but then neither will be a virtual passport. > Fancy physical documents without security chips are inherently less secure, not more. All new and future identification documents will have a chip anyway. The baseline is not just a piece of paper. You start from the premise that a physical document is trivial to forge, therefore it is not an improvement over a purely numerical one. But that’s circular logic. In reality, it is more difficult to steal, copy and re-sell a physical passport than a cryptographic key.