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Seems relevant. How did you feel about that term? Did it trigger slight unease deep down? I do suspect that the fact that the US doesn’t have a recent history

Seems relevant. How did you feel about that term? Did it trigger slight unease deep down? I do suspect that the fact that the US doesn’t have a recent history of being oppressed might discount it a little (if one is considered a dominant power, one can afford the luxury of taking some mild negging in stride). On the other hand, in case of e.g. “blacklist” — it meaning a list of people or entities to deny service — color of skin being unalienable phenotypical trait — history of black skin color used as basis for discrimination and oppression (and indeed denial of service) not long ago (or even now) — it could be a little trickier. I have no personal experience with either case, though, so who am I to judge.

seanhunter 6y ago
I don't really have a credible opinion on this topic. That said there are lots of examples of this type of thing in language. Eg in ancient Rome they used to think left-handedness was unnatural, so to this day there are negative words like "Sinister" which literally in Latin means "left" and positive words (dextrous, dexterity etc) which derive from "dexter" which is Latin for "right". Also "adroit" in English means "able" where "a droit" in French means "to the right". And "gauche" means clumsy or lacking grace in English whereas in French it means "left" Likewise "hysterical" derives from "hyster" (Uterus) and stems from the idea that the female reproductive system made women mad and incapable. I feel like one of the things that people miss often in discussing these topics is the asymmetry of power. If you're one of the people who has historically been discriminated against you may well have different feelings from people who has historically doing the discriminating. We should listen to each other more and if these terms are a barrier then there really is no harm to using other terms. I think using friendly language is the least I can do from the point of view of being courteous to others.
- goblin89 6y ago
  Nice examples. On one hand, once etymology of a word is old enough, it becomes forgotten and not many people are offended; on the other hand, once that etymology is brought to light, continuing to use that word may become an ethically questionable choice. That said, the pushback against “master” and “blacklist” seems related not to etymology (origins of those words don’t involve race or slavery) but to connotations acquired afterwards. > We should listen to each other more and if these terms are a barrier then there really is no harm to using other terms. Agreed. I’m personally torn on this issue. On one hand, the fact that these words rub people wrong is an indicator of a deeper problem—in an ideal world, no one would take a term personally because they’d know it denotes a technical concept and isn’t intended to put anyone down; on the other hand, it’s not really that difficult to stop using some terms in new codebases. On one hand, we should get input from those directly affected by this; on the other hand, those affected may choose to stay silent despite possible discomfort and treat it as a problem with their insecurities rather than the industry.

seanhunter 6y ago

I don't really have a credible opinion on this topic. That said there are lots of examples of this type of thing in language. Eg in ancient Rome they used to think left-handedness was unnatural, so to this day there are negative words like "Sinister" which literally in Latin means "left" and positive words (dextrous, dexterity etc) which derive from "dexter" which is Latin for "right". Also "adroit" in English means "able" where "a droit" in French means "to the right". And "gauche" means clumsy or lacking grace in English whereas in French it means "left" Likewise "hysterical" derives from "hyster" (Uterus) and stems from the idea that the female reproductive system made women mad and incapable. I feel like one of the things that people miss often in discussing these topics is the asymmetry of power. If you're one of the people who has historically been discriminated against you may well have different feelings from people who has historically doing the discriminating. We should listen to each other more and if these terms are a barrier then there really is no harm to using other terms. I think using friendly language is the least I can do from the point of view of being courteous to others.

goblin89 6y ago
Nice examples. On one hand, once etymology of a word is old enough, it becomes forgotten and not many people are offended; on the other hand, once that etymology is brought to light, continuing to use that word may become an ethically questionable choice. That said, the pushback against “master” and “blacklist” seems related not to etymology (origins of those words don’t involve race or slavery) but to connotations acquired afterwards. > We should listen to each other more and if these terms are a barrier then there really is no harm to using other terms. Agreed. I’m personally torn on this issue. On one hand, the fact that these words rub people wrong is an indicator of a deeper problem—in an ideal world, no one would take a term personally because they’d know it denotes a technical concept and isn’t intended to put anyone down; on the other hand, it’s not really that difficult to stop using some terms in new codebases. On one hand, we should get input from those directly affected by this; on the other hand, those affected may choose to stay silent despite possible discomfort and treat it as a problem with their insecurities rather than the industry.