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Entire industries have been built on top of JavaScript, from rags to the most valuable companies in the world reinvesting back into it. It’s getting mature, too

Entire industries have been built on top of JavaScript, from rags to the most valuable companies in the world reinvesting back into it. It’s getting mature, too. As someone who 5 years ago refused to learn JavaScript and was firmly in your camp, I don’t really see an “up to snuff” argument to be made anymore. All languages have quirks and JavaScript definitely has them, but it’s not alone in that regard, especially comparing to C/C++/Go. Besides, you don’t want a systems programming language to write code that runs in the EVM, or when running others untrusted code. Use the right tool for the right job.

TeeWEE 6y ago
> Entire industries have been built on top of JavaScript, from rags to the most valuable companies in the world reinvesting back into it. It’s getting mature, too. This is a fallacy argument. Because other users it, doens't mean its good.
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- samtheprogram 6y ago
  Thanks for pointing this out. While I think that speaks to the productivity it has provided (I guess that’s a stretch / could be coincidence), what I really should have conveyed is that through a thriving ecosystem and updated standards, it’s gotten a lot better over time. Node v8+ and latest versions of NPM are very far from where they used to be. Again, JavaScript is not without it’s quirks, but I don’t think any language is free from that statement, and JavaScript’s are easily managed in my opinion. It’s single threaded, but again, right tool for the right job.
  - anonymoushn 6y ago
    There's a thriving ecosystem because you are forced to use it. Do you think there wouldn't be a thriving perl ecosystem if perl was the only language you could use to execute code in a web browser?
    - samtheprogram 6y ago
      Very likely; although JavaScript became much more popular after it was available outside the browser, that probably was a factor. It doesn’t affect my argument that it is a thriving ecosystem that has made it worth much more than the negative sentiment it has received in the past, and that it is not a bad choice.
      - oilbagz 6y ago
        Its a bad choice because you have to use Javascript, and Javascript is a shitty technology akin to Visual Basic. Collective adoption of a technology doesn't make it 'good'. It makes it 'available'. Those things are not always equivalent.
      - anonymoushn 6y ago
        While the ecosystem contributes value for many use cases, I don't think you can make use of such things when writing smart contracts that run on a very slow and very expensive computer.
oilbagz 6y ago
Entire industries have been built on Cobol, and Emacs-as-a-Lisp-host, and Visual Basic too, but that doesn't mean we should be using any of it for a next-generation financial trading scheme. There aren't any good reasons to avoid producing viable C/C++ libraries to implement this kind of technology - only developer complacency and laziness. Want me to adopt your new fintech? Let me embed it in ANY app I might write, not just the browser, not just cli-Javascript ..
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- samtheprogram 6y ago
  What do you want to embed? web3.js? My guess is that is low hanging fruit, given that it’s mostly interacting with Ethereum nodes over HTTP and websockets, so if someone wants to do this, they could pretty straightforward. If their primary user of their integration are people on the web and cell phones, I think this was a good, scope limiting decision. Or is it something else?
  - oilbagz 6y ago
    I would love to be able to incorporate Ethereum features in my apps - which are written in C/C++-friendly languages, and which avoid any and all use of Javascript, at all cost. I don't think the decision to use Javascript for this kind of functionality was wise, or practical. The cyclomatic complexity of managing a web-installable javascript codebase compared to a C/C++ module is just too damn high.

TeeWEE 6y ago

> Entire industries have been built on top of JavaScript, from rags to the most valuable companies in the world reinvesting back into it. It’s getting mature, too. This is a fallacy argument. Because other users it, doens't mean its good.

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samtheprogram 6y ago
Thanks for pointing this out. While I think that speaks to the productivity it has provided (I guess that’s a stretch / could be coincidence), what I really should have conveyed is that through a thriving ecosystem and updated standards, it’s gotten a lot better over time. Node v8+ and latest versions of NPM are very far from where they used to be. Again, JavaScript is not without it’s quirks, but I don’t think any language is free from that statement, and JavaScript’s are easily managed in my opinion. It’s single threaded, but again, right tool for the right job.
- anonymoushn 6y ago
  There's a thriving ecosystem because you are forced to use it. Do you think there wouldn't be a thriving perl ecosystem if perl was the only language you could use to execute code in a web browser?
  - samtheprogram 6y ago
    Very likely; although JavaScript became much more popular after it was available outside the browser, that probably was a factor. It doesn’t affect my argument that it is a thriving ecosystem that has made it worth much more than the negative sentiment it has received in the past, and that it is not a bad choice.
    - oilbagz 6y ago
      Its a bad choice because you have to use Javascript, and Javascript is a shitty technology akin to Visual Basic. Collective adoption of a technology doesn't make it 'good'. It makes it 'available'. Those things are not always equivalent.
    - anonymoushn 6y ago
      While the ecosystem contributes value for many use cases, I don't think you can make use of such things when writing smart contracts that run on a very slow and very expensive computer.

oilbagz 6y ago

Entire industries have been built on Cobol, and Emacs-as-a-Lisp-host, and Visual Basic too, but that doesn't mean we should be using any of it for a next-generation financial trading scheme. There aren't any good reasons to avoid producing viable C/C++ libraries to implement this kind of technology - only developer complacency and laziness. Want me to adopt your new fintech? Let me embed it in ANY app I might write, not just the browser, not just cli-Javascript ..

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samtheprogram 6y ago
What do you want to embed? web3.js? My guess is that is low hanging fruit, given that it’s mostly interacting with Ethereum nodes over HTTP and websockets, so if someone wants to do this, they could pretty straightforward. If their primary user of their integration are people on the web and cell phones, I think this was a good, scope limiting decision. Or is it something else?
- oilbagz 6y ago
  I would love to be able to incorporate Ethereum features in my apps - which are written in C/C++-friendly languages, and which avoid any and all use of Javascript, at all cost. I don't think the decision to use Javascript for this kind of functionality was wise, or practical. The cyclomatic complexity of managing a web-installable javascript codebase compared to a C/C++ module is just too damn high.