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Its the stack. I can't get interested in any crypto currency or related technology that doesn't provide, at a minimum, a linkable C library or .. even better .

Its the stack. I can't get interested in any crypto currency or related technology that doesn't provide, at a minimum, a linkable C library or .. even better .. a luarocks module .. to do all the work. If I even have to think about using npm or javascript to join the new hipster cult, I'm out. These tools are not up to snuff. C'mon crypto guys, give us systems programmers the libs we need. Javascript is OUT. Your fancy DSL is OUT. Go C/C++ native, or GTFO ...

samtheprogram 6y ago
Entire industries have been built on top of JavaScript, from rags to the most valuable companies in the world reinvesting back into it. It’s getting mature, too. As someone who 5 years ago refused to learn JavaScript and was firmly in your camp, I don’t really see an “up to snuff” argument to be made anymore. All languages have quirks and JavaScript definitely has them, but it’s not alone in that regard, especially comparing to C/C++/Go. Besides, you don’t want a systems programming language to write code that runs in the EVM, or when running others untrusted code. Use the right tool for the right job.
- TeeWEE 6y ago
  > Entire industries have been built on top of JavaScript, from rags to the most valuable companies in the world reinvesting back into it. It’s getting mature, too. This is a fallacy argument. Because other users it, doens't mean its good.
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  - samtheprogram 6y ago
    Thanks for pointing this out. While I think that speaks to the productivity it has provided (I guess that’s a stretch / could be coincidence), what I really should have conveyed is that through a thriving ecosystem and updated standards, it’s gotten a lot better over time. Node v8+ and latest versions of NPM are very far from where they used to be. Again, JavaScript is not without it’s quirks, but I don’t think any language is free from that statement, and JavaScript’s are easily managed in my opinion. It’s single threaded, but again, right tool for the right job.
    - anonymoushn 6y ago
      There's a thriving ecosystem because you are forced to use it. Do you think there wouldn't be a thriving perl ecosystem if perl was the only language you could use to execute code in a web browser?
      - samtheprogram 6y ago
        Very likely; although JavaScript became much more popular after it was available outside the browser, that probably was a factor. It doesn’t affect my argument that it is a thriving ecosystem that has made it worth much more than the negative sentiment it has received in the past, and that it is not a bad choice.
        oilbagz 6y ago
        Its a bad choice because you have to use Javascript, and Javascript is a shitty technology akin to Visual Basic. Collective adoption of a technology doesn't make it 'good'. It makes it 'available'. Those things are not always equivalent.
        anonymoushn 6y ago
        While the ecosystem contributes value for many use cases, I don't think you can make use of such things when writing smart contracts that run on a very slow and very expensive computer.
- oilbagz 6y ago
  Entire industries have been built on Cobol, and Emacs-as-a-Lisp-host, and Visual Basic too, but that doesn't mean we should be using any of it for a next-generation financial trading scheme. There aren't any good reasons to avoid producing viable C/C++ libraries to implement this kind of technology - only developer complacency and laziness. Want me to adopt your new fintech? Let me embed it in ANY app I might write, not just the browser, not just cli-Javascript ..
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  - samtheprogram 6y ago
    What do you want to embed? web3.js? My guess is that is low hanging fruit, given that it’s mostly interacting with Ethereum nodes over HTTP and websockets, so if someone wants to do this, they could pretty straightforward. If their primary user of their integration are people on the web and cell phones, I think this was a good, scope limiting decision. Or is it something else?
    - oilbagz 6y ago
      I would love to be able to incorporate Ethereum features in my apps - which are written in C/C++-friendly languages, and which avoid any and all use of Javascript, at all cost. I don't think the decision to use Javascript for this kind of functionality was wise, or practical. The cyclomatic complexity of managing a web-installable javascript codebase compared to a C/C++ module is just too damn high.
AgentME 6y ago
>Go C/C++ native, or GTFO ... I don't think memory-safety issues are the killer app for Ethereum. The lack of C/C++ is one of the best things about the Ethereum ecosystem.
- oilbagz 6y ago
  Memory-safety issues are a thing of the 20th century, if you still have them in this day and age as a C/C++ developer you probably should put the real compiler down, kid .. Besides which, you're never going to convince me that Javascript/NPM have fewer issues with leaks and holes than a well engineered C/C++ lib would. I mean, come on ..
  - yao420 6y ago
    As a security guy I love when people have your perspective on memory safety, guarantees my job for a couple more decades. Memory issues are still the source of the biggest and best bugs. I have no doubt I can find huge security issues in your native code.
    - oilbagz 6y ago
      I'm a SIL-4 programmer. If you can find security issues in my code, its because it hasn't .. yet .. been through the rigors of my teams safety certification and validation processes. Check back in a year, and don't forget to start with the code coverage counts. While I certainly concur with your perspective, the context is, C/C++ vs. Javascript. You have so many low hanging fruit in the npm eco-system, you'd be a fool wasting time on my code. Which, incidentally, is protecting millions of peoples lives in 40 countries, while they commute to work every single day... its not exactly the kind of stuff that teenagers unpack for use in searching strings for things .. Finance code should be much, much better tested than the Javascript eco-system allows. There is no reason not to write finance/cryptocurrency code with the same vigor as transportation safety modules. You're totally right that, if my C/C++ codebase were treated the same way as the average Javascript module, you'd be having a field day. But, done properly, you'd have your job cut out for you. And thats exactly what I'm asking for, from those building 'next generation finance software': get it to SIL-4.
balaa 6y ago
Check out substrate which uses Rust

samtheprogram 6y ago

Entire industries have been built on top of JavaScript, from rags to the most valuable companies in the world reinvesting back into it. It’s getting mature, too. As someone who 5 years ago refused to learn JavaScript and was firmly in your camp, I don’t really see an “up to snuff” argument to be made anymore. All languages have quirks and JavaScript definitely has them, but it’s not alone in that regard, especially comparing to C/C++/Go. Besides, you don’t want a systems programming language to write code that runs in the EVM, or when running others untrusted code. Use the right tool for the right job.

TeeWEE 6y ago
> Entire industries have been built on top of JavaScript, from rags to the most valuable companies in the world reinvesting back into it. It’s getting mature, too. This is a fallacy argument. Because other users it, doens't mean its good.
- deleted 6y ago
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- deleted 6y ago
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- samtheprogram 6y ago
  Thanks for pointing this out. While I think that speaks to the productivity it has provided (I guess that’s a stretch / could be coincidence), what I really should have conveyed is that through a thriving ecosystem and updated standards, it’s gotten a lot better over time. Node v8+ and latest versions of NPM are very far from where they used to be. Again, JavaScript is not without it’s quirks, but I don’t think any language is free from that statement, and JavaScript’s are easily managed in my opinion. It’s single threaded, but again, right tool for the right job.
  - anonymoushn 6y ago
    There's a thriving ecosystem because you are forced to use it. Do you think there wouldn't be a thriving perl ecosystem if perl was the only language you could use to execute code in a web browser?
    - samtheprogram 6y ago
      Very likely; although JavaScript became much more popular after it was available outside the browser, that probably was a factor. It doesn’t affect my argument that it is a thriving ecosystem that has made it worth much more than the negative sentiment it has received in the past, and that it is not a bad choice.
      - oilbagz 6y ago
        Its a bad choice because you have to use Javascript, and Javascript is a shitty technology akin to Visual Basic. Collective adoption of a technology doesn't make it 'good'. It makes it 'available'. Those things are not always equivalent.
      - anonymoushn 6y ago
        While the ecosystem contributes value for many use cases, I don't think you can make use of such things when writing smart contracts that run on a very slow and very expensive computer.
oilbagz 6y ago
Entire industries have been built on Cobol, and Emacs-as-a-Lisp-host, and Visual Basic too, but that doesn't mean we should be using any of it for a next-generation financial trading scheme. There aren't any good reasons to avoid producing viable C/C++ libraries to implement this kind of technology - only developer complacency and laziness. Want me to adopt your new fintech? Let me embed it in ANY app I might write, not just the browser, not just cli-Javascript ..
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
- samtheprogram 6y ago
  What do you want to embed? web3.js? My guess is that is low hanging fruit, given that it’s mostly interacting with Ethereum nodes over HTTP and websockets, so if someone wants to do this, they could pretty straightforward. If their primary user of their integration are people on the web and cell phones, I think this was a good, scope limiting decision. Or is it something else?
  - oilbagz 6y ago
    I would love to be able to incorporate Ethereum features in my apps - which are written in C/C++-friendly languages, and which avoid any and all use of Javascript, at all cost. I don't think the decision to use Javascript for this kind of functionality was wise, or practical. The cyclomatic complexity of managing a web-installable javascript codebase compared to a C/C++ module is just too damn high.

AgentME 6y ago

>Go C/C++ native, or GTFO ... I don't think memory-safety issues are the killer app for Ethereum. The lack of C/C++ is one of the best things about the Ethereum ecosystem.

oilbagz 6y ago
Memory-safety issues are a thing of the 20th century, if you still have them in this day and age as a C/C++ developer you probably should put the real compiler down, kid .. Besides which, you're never going to convince me that Javascript/NPM have fewer issues with leaks and holes than a well engineered C/C++ lib would. I mean, come on ..
- yao420 6y ago
  As a security guy I love when people have your perspective on memory safety, guarantees my job for a couple more decades. Memory issues are still the source of the biggest and best bugs. I have no doubt I can find huge security issues in your native code.
  - oilbagz 6y ago
    I'm a SIL-4 programmer. If you can find security issues in my code, its because it hasn't .. yet .. been through the rigors of my teams safety certification and validation processes. Check back in a year, and don't forget to start with the code coverage counts. While I certainly concur with your perspective, the context is, C/C++ vs. Javascript. You have so many low hanging fruit in the npm eco-system, you'd be a fool wasting time on my code. Which, incidentally, is protecting millions of peoples lives in 40 countries, while they commute to work every single day... its not exactly the kind of stuff that teenagers unpack for use in searching strings for things .. Finance code should be much, much better tested than the Javascript eco-system allows. There is no reason not to write finance/cryptocurrency code with the same vigor as transportation safety modules. You're totally right that, if my C/C++ codebase were treated the same way as the average Javascript module, you'd be having a field day. But, done properly, you'd have your job cut out for you. And thats exactly what I'm asking for, from those building 'next generation finance software': get it to SIL-4.

balaa 6y ago

Check out substrate which uses Rust