6 ms·

Usenet, updated in real time as it was thirty years ago

131 points by adambyrtek 15y ago

osswid 15y ago
Wow...this is seriously cool. I like how the old threads are preserved in the newsreader interface. There is also something about having the clock advance in "realtime" that makes it more fun to run that just skimming through the old archive. Nice work Joey.
yaakov34 15y ago
The nostalgia that this makes me feel is unbelievable. Some things about old Usenet are probably lost forever: 1. The feeling that "this matters". Usenet wasn't just one discussion forum among millions, it was The One. 2. The life of the mind - the all-text nature of the old Usenet was somehow incredibly conductive to treating people as pure intellects. "On Usenet, it doesn't matter if you're a dog." Somehow even forums like HN don't capture that feeling today. Also, a decent newsreader is still ahead of all modern browser-based software by a mile when it comes to following many discussion threads. For me, nothing today compares with trn. Yeah, I know Usenet is still out there, and I can even be found there sometimes, but it's not the same feeling anymore, not of intellectual wonder and horizons and of being a pioneer. Probably, that's hard to explain to the youngsters who weren't there - wow, the internet has produced its crop of old-timers.
- beej71 15y ago
  > Also, a decent newsreader is still ahead of all modern browser-based software by a mile when it comes to following many discussion threads. For me, nothing today compares with trn. You're far from the only one who feels this way. I'm not quite sure why it is, but I think it's because trn's tree is basically drawn "orthogonally" (if I might use that word), with siblings stacked vertically, and children moving off to the right. A "normal" newsreader uses the standard indented list, which gives the whole thread a "meandering set of diagonals" shape, and has a less strong visual connection between siblings (which is an important connection, because they're all replying to the same parent.) So I was just looking for a screenshot of trn for people who didn't know what it looked like, and I found this blog entry talking about exactly this (with screenshot): http://cafbit.com/entry/the_lost_art_of_threaded http://cafbit.com/entry/the_lost_art_of_threaded
  - yaakov34 15y ago
    Yeah, but it's by no means just that. I was thinking of the simplest things, like messages you've read not showing up again (unless asked for), using a single key to advance to the next message, pressing a key to mark a thread read. The advanced threading and killfile features were great, of course, but the web interface is just so fantastically less convenient for basic stuff - it's unbelievable. Imagine going to the HN front page, clicking on all the threads you're not going to follow and marking them read or killed (meaning they don't show up again), and then clicking on the threads you want brings you to the last UNREAD messages in those threads. And you press space to go the next unread message. Imagine all forums being like that. Give me that, and I don't care if you give me a vertical or a horizontal tree display (tho' I prefer the trn way). It seems so simple that I almost can't believe I'm not missing something subtle.
    - joe_bleau 15y ago
      Exactly! Even HN (one of the best web forums, IMO), is still clunky compared to usenet. Usenet made it so easy and efficient to follow topics you were interested in while ignoring the crap. I think I'd be willing to give up the ability to upvote comments/submissions in exchange for a good usenet interface to HN.
      - Natsu 15y ago
        > I think I'd be willing to give up the ability to upvote comments/submissions in exchange for a good usenet interface to HN. Given that this is HN. I wonder how long before someone implements something like that for fun.
    - btilly 15y ago
      The simple things that you're describing are all in gmail.
      - swaits 15y ago
        Not really, no.
- kahawe 15y ago
  I think one part of this can be attributed to the average Internet/Usenet users back then and typical Internet users of today and to the huge difference in numbers.
antirez 15y ago
What's sad is that there is no serious replacement for usenet in the internet of today. Usenet was a place where top talents of the world used to talk together with amateurs on the more disparate topics. Back then the internet was for an elite, and that sucked as universal access to the net is really important, but at the same time it is sad to see most of the internet reflecting the fact that today it is a "mass" thing.
- smanek 15y ago
  quora?
  - tokenadult 15y ago
    Hacker News much more than Quora.
    - smanek 15y ago
      HN is definitely a place for experts to interact with 'everyday' folks in tech. But it doesn't even aspire to be that for any other vertical. Quora arguably has a marginally lower caliber of tech experts, but much higher for many other verticals including business, journalism, media, etc.
      - tokenadult 15y ago
        I'm referring to the verticals I know and about which I do ongoing research, which mostly aren't tech verticals. I've checked facts on those issues on Quora, which has been disappointing as a source of information on those subjects.
        smanek 15y ago
        Well, without more information, I can't really prove you wrong ;-) But I still contend that Quora has experts in more domains than HN does. Check out the breadth of industries represented on http://www.quoratop.com/ http://www.quoratop.com/. Of course, it's still tech heavy - but it's more diverse than HN. It's not perfect - but it's a much better candidate than HN.
joeyh 15y ago
Here's my announcement post, which is, I hope, worth reading for some context of what's going on in 1981 "now": http://kitenet.net/~joey/blog/entry/announcing_olduse.net/ http://kitenet.net/~joey/blog/entry/announcing_olduse.net/ Also, if you see a blank box where the newsreader should be, yeah, inviting the whole web in to run tin on my server is not a completely scalable thing. nntp.olduse.net is where it's at.
- evangineer 15y ago
  joeyh's git repo for this neat hack: http://git.kitenet.net/?p=oldusenet.git;a=summary http://git.kitenet.net/?p=oldusenet.git;a=summary
joeyh 15y ago
This was just posted in the "hacknews" newsgroup. Its resemblance to my day is uncanny. Message-ID: <696@Autzoo.UUCP> Newsgroups: hacknews Path: utzoo!henry Date: Fri Jun 5 15:44:20 1981 Subject: morning crash From: henry X-OldUsenet-Modified: added From; converted from A-news; fixed Message-ID; added Xref: dummy dummy:1 Crash this morning, a mass of multiple panics suggesting some sort of catasstrophic failure. Hardware glitch? Reboot and rebuild (by Laura) succeeded with no problems.
neilk 15y ago
Updated in real time? So I have at least ten years before my embarassing newbie posts arrive. I want a fork of this that allows me to reply to me. ;)
Sniffnoy 15y ago
This is before the Great Renaming, I don't even know the structure...

131 points by adambyrtek 15y ago

Wow...this is seriously cool. I like how the old threads are preserved in the newsreader interface. There is also something about having the clock advance in "realtime" that makes it more fun to run that just skimming through the old archive. Nice work Joey.

yaakov34 15y ago

The nostalgia that this makes me feel is unbelievable. Some things about old Usenet are probably lost forever: 1. The feeling that "this matters". Usenet wasn't just one discussion forum among millions, it was The One. 2. The life of the mind - the all-text nature of the old Usenet was somehow incredibly conductive to treating people as pure intellects. "On Usenet, it doesn't matter if you're a dog." Somehow even forums like HN don't capture that feeling today. Also, a decent newsreader is still ahead of all modern browser-based software by a mile when it comes to following many discussion threads. For me, nothing today compares with trn. Yeah, I know Usenet is still out there, and I can even be found there sometimes, but it's not the same feeling anymore, not of intellectual wonder and horizons and of being a pioneer. Probably, that's hard to explain to the youngsters who weren't there - wow, the internet has produced its crop of old-timers.

beej71 15y ago
> Also, a decent newsreader is still ahead of all modern browser-based software by a mile when it comes to following many discussion threads. For me, nothing today compares with trn. You're far from the only one who feels this way. I'm not quite sure why it is, but I think it's because trn's tree is basically drawn "orthogonally" (if I might use that word), with siblings stacked vertically, and children moving off to the right. A "normal" newsreader uses the standard indented list, which gives the whole thread a "meandering set of diagonals" shape, and has a less strong visual connection between siblings (which is an important connection, because they're all replying to the same parent.) So I was just looking for a screenshot of trn for people who didn't know what it looked like, and I found this blog entry talking about exactly this (with screenshot): http://cafbit.com/entry/the_lost_art_of_threaded http://cafbit.com/entry/the_lost_art_of_threaded
- yaakov34 15y ago
  Yeah, but it's by no means just that. I was thinking of the simplest things, like messages you've read not showing up again (unless asked for), using a single key to advance to the next message, pressing a key to mark a thread read. The advanced threading and killfile features were great, of course, but the web interface is just so fantastically less convenient for basic stuff - it's unbelievable. Imagine going to the HN front page, clicking on all the threads you're not going to follow and marking them read or killed (meaning they don't show up again), and then clicking on the threads you want brings you to the last UNREAD messages in those threads. And you press space to go the next unread message. Imagine all forums being like that. Give me that, and I don't care if you give me a vertical or a horizontal tree display (tho' I prefer the trn way). It seems so simple that I almost can't believe I'm not missing something subtle.
  - joe_bleau 15y ago
    Exactly! Even HN (one of the best web forums, IMO), is still clunky compared to usenet. Usenet made it so easy and efficient to follow topics you were interested in while ignoring the crap. I think I'd be willing to give up the ability to upvote comments/submissions in exchange for a good usenet interface to HN.
    - Natsu 15y ago
      > I think I'd be willing to give up the ability to upvote comments/submissions in exchange for a good usenet interface to HN. Given that this is HN. I wonder how long before someone implements something like that for fun.
  - btilly 15y ago
    The simple things that you're describing are all in gmail.
    - swaits 15y ago
      Not really, no.
kahawe 15y ago
I think one part of this can be attributed to the average Internet/Usenet users back then and typical Internet users of today and to the huge difference in numbers.

antirez 15y ago

What's sad is that there is no serious replacement for usenet in the internet of today. Usenet was a place where top talents of the world used to talk together with amateurs on the more disparate topics. Back then the internet was for an elite, and that sucked as universal access to the net is really important, but at the same time it is sad to see most of the internet reflecting the fact that today it is a "mass" thing.

smanek 15y ago
quora?
- tokenadult 15y ago
  Hacker News much more than Quora.
  - smanek 15y ago
    HN is definitely a place for experts to interact with 'everyday' folks in tech. But it doesn't even aspire to be that for any other vertical. Quora arguably has a marginally lower caliber of tech experts, but much higher for many other verticals including business, journalism, media, etc.
    - tokenadult 15y ago
      I'm referring to the verticals I know and about which I do ongoing research, which mostly aren't tech verticals. I've checked facts on those issues on Quora, which has been disappointing as a source of information on those subjects.
      - smanek 15y ago
        Well, without more information, I can't really prove you wrong ;-) But I still contend that Quora has experts in more domains than HN does. Check out the breadth of industries represented on http://www.quoratop.com/ http://www.quoratop.com/. Of course, it's still tech heavy - but it's more diverse than HN. It's not perfect - but it's a much better candidate than HN.

joeyh 15y ago

Here's my announcement post, which is, I hope, worth reading for some context of what's going on in 1981 "now": http://kitenet.net/~joey/blog/entry/announcing_olduse.net/ http://kitenet.net/~joey/blog/entry/announcing_olduse.net/ Also, if you see a blank box where the newsreader should be, yeah, inviting the whole web in to run tin on my server is not a completely scalable thing. nntp.olduse.net is where it's at.

evangineer 15y ago
joeyh's git repo for this neat hack: http://git.kitenet.net/?p=oldusenet.git;a=summary http://git.kitenet.net/?p=oldusenet.git;a=summary

joeyh 15y ago

This was just posted in the "hacknews" newsgroup. Its resemblance to my day is uncanny. Message-ID: <696@Autzoo.UUCP> Newsgroups: hacknews Path: utzoo!henry Date: Fri Jun 5 15:44:20 1981 Subject: morning crash From: henry X-OldUsenet-Modified: added From; converted from A-news; fixed Message-ID; added Xref: dummy dummy:1 Crash this morning, a mass of multiple panics suggesting some sort of catasstrophic failure. Hardware glitch? Reboot and rebuild (by Laura) succeeded with no problems.

neilk 15y ago

Updated in real time? So I have at least ten years before my embarassing newbie posts arrive. I want a fork of this that allows me to reply to me. ;)

Sniffnoy 15y ago

This is before the Great Renaming, I don't even know the structure...