4 ms·

I don't agree with the parent comment's perspective, but isn't it deeply ironic to make this statement?

by Bakary 6y ago

_-david-_ 6y ago
By 'this statement' do you mean mine or the person I was responding to?
- Bakary 6y ago
  The former. The proposition is a hard sell on a purely logical basis ("if you don't freedom correctly, we'll freedom you") but also in its broader context. Western nations have made great innovations in empire building and genocide from the Opium Wars to the camps, have destabilized a large number of governments, created the threat of nuclear annihilation, then lecture other nations after only a few decades of liberalization; that liberalization having come only as a result of a weakening of their relative power. I'm not coming at this from the angle of wanting to see the West fail. On the contrary, I think it would be a far better strategic choice to focus on our current crop of governance failures instead of trying to mold other countries, return to looking at first principles instead of "End of History" magical thinking, and come up with stronger incentives and examples for other countries to try the liberal/democratic model of development than just vague appeals to values that don't even sound so great when we are electing populist leaders.
  - _-david-_ 6y ago
    I consider any genocide, opium wars, etc to not be western values. While the west did do those things I do not think they are in line with the values I think should be wide spread. I think an apt comparison would be members of the military being charged with conduct unbecoming. Just because a member of the military does something bad doesn't mean that those are the values of the military. Just because the west has done some bad things doesn't mean those are western values. Western values are freedom of speech and religion, not imprisoning political opponents or ethnic and religious minorities. Along with the ability to do most anything you want with relatively low amount of restrictions. There are more things that would be considered western values but I think you probably understand what I mean by western values. Western governments are comprised of people. These are people who are flawed and do not always do the right thing, but that doesn't mean there aren't ideals worth spreading. We have Biden and others who say that China is just following different cultural norms. If enslaving people is part of a country's culture and value system then we should try to push the western values onto them.
    - dragonwriter 6y ago
      > I consider any genocide, opium wars, etc to not be western values. Well, yeah, if you just arbitrarily define things that the West actively prioritized as “not Western values” because it doesn't fit the mythology you want to create of the West, then you can make any argument you want. In reality, “Western values” are in deep conflict with themselves because the West is not, and never has been, even loosely ideologically coherent, much less ideologically consistent over time. Are “freedom of speech” and “freedom of religion” Western values? Sure, but so is imprisoning, persecuting, and even exterminating religious, ideological, ethnic, and racial minorities, especially ones which refuse to assimilate the dominant culture. If you ignore the evidence that the latter has been, and remains today, a prominent value in the West in favor of mythologizing the former as the exclusive set of defining Western values in this domain, you won't understand either the actual West or the way the rest of the world responds to the West.
    - Bakary 6y ago
      Take the perspective of your average Chinese household. You have a century and a half of absolutely horrific events one after the other. The nation itself is parceled, invaded, and humiliated in various ways. Then after generations of poverty and misery the living standards don't just rise, but skyrocket upwards to the point where someone born after 1980 lives in a different world. Today, there are multiple opportunities to have a better life even for people in the poorest regions, where there previously was nothing. It is quite literally the single largest increase in living standards in history. If a person from that Chinese household told you that China is deeply flawed and doesn't always do the right thing, but that there are ideals worth spreading, what would you say to them? Why is authoritarianism the defining trait of that civ, but somehow the centuries of Western colonization and subjugation aren't a defining trait of Western values? If the majority of the activity, funding and development of a military is to intervene in order to maintain economic and geopolitical interests, isn't that a better way to define it than vague abstract values like a soldier's code or "becoming conduct"? Does it matter that soldiers have a nice story to tell themselves when the end aggregate result of their participation is much grittier? More broadly, aren't positive values the result of economic and political strength? Living standards are dropping and inequality is rising in the US, and the result was a semi-authoritarian and largely unqualified cabinet. So are Western values actually part of the Western character or a consequence of successful empire building and good economic conditions?

I don't agree with the parent comment's perspective, but isn't it deeply ironic to make this statement?

by Bakary 6y ago

I don't agree with the parent comment's perspective, but isn't it deeply ironic to make this statement?

_-david-_ 6y ago

By 'this statement' do you mean mine or the person I was responding to?

Bakary 6y ago
The former. The proposition is a hard sell on a purely logical basis ("if you don't freedom correctly, we'll freedom you") but also in its broader context. Western nations have made great innovations in empire building and genocide from the Opium Wars to the camps, have destabilized a large number of governments, created the threat of nuclear annihilation, then lecture other nations after only a few decades of liberalization; that liberalization having come only as a result of a weakening of their relative power. I'm not coming at this from the angle of wanting to see the West fail. On the contrary, I think it would be a far better strategic choice to focus on our current crop of governance failures instead of trying to mold other countries, return to looking at first principles instead of "End of History" magical thinking, and come up with stronger incentives and examples for other countries to try the liberal/democratic model of development than just vague appeals to values that don't even sound so great when we are electing populist leaders.
- _-david-_ 6y ago
  I consider any genocide, opium wars, etc to not be western values. While the west did do those things I do not think they are in line with the values I think should be wide spread. I think an apt comparison would be members of the military being charged with conduct unbecoming. Just because a member of the military does something bad doesn't mean that those are the values of the military. Just because the west has done some bad things doesn't mean those are western values. Western values are freedom of speech and religion, not imprisoning political opponents or ethnic and religious minorities. Along with the ability to do most anything you want with relatively low amount of restrictions. There are more things that would be considered western values but I think you probably understand what I mean by western values. Western governments are comprised of people. These are people who are flawed and do not always do the right thing, but that doesn't mean there aren't ideals worth spreading. We have Biden and others who say that China is just following different cultural norms. If enslaving people is part of a country's culture and value system then we should try to push the western values onto them.
  - dragonwriter 6y ago
    > I consider any genocide, opium wars, etc to not be western values. Well, yeah, if you just arbitrarily define things that the West actively prioritized as “not Western values” because it doesn't fit the mythology you want to create of the West, then you can make any argument you want. In reality, “Western values” are in deep conflict with themselves because the West is not, and never has been, even loosely ideologically coherent, much less ideologically consistent over time. Are “freedom of speech” and “freedom of religion” Western values? Sure, but so is imprisoning, persecuting, and even exterminating religious, ideological, ethnic, and racial minorities, especially ones which refuse to assimilate the dominant culture. If you ignore the evidence that the latter has been, and remains today, a prominent value in the West in favor of mythologizing the former as the exclusive set of defining Western values in this domain, you won't understand either the actual West or the way the rest of the world responds to the West.
  - Bakary 6y ago
    Take the perspective of your average Chinese household. You have a century and a half of absolutely horrific events one after the other. The nation itself is parceled, invaded, and humiliated in various ways. Then after generations of poverty and misery the living standards don't just rise, but skyrocket upwards to the point where someone born after 1980 lives in a different world. Today, there are multiple opportunities to have a better life even for people in the poorest regions, where there previously was nothing. It is quite literally the single largest increase in living standards in history. If a person from that Chinese household told you that China is deeply flawed and doesn't always do the right thing, but that there are ideals worth spreading, what would you say to them? Why is authoritarianism the defining trait of that civ, but somehow the centuries of Western colonization and subjugation aren't a defining trait of Western values? If the majority of the activity, funding and development of a military is to intervene in order to maintain economic and geopolitical interests, isn't that a better way to define it than vague abstract values like a soldier's code or "becoming conduct"? Does it matter that soldiers have a nice story to tell themselves when the end aggregate result of their participation is much grittier? More broadly, aren't positive values the result of economic and political strength? Living standards are dropping and inequality is rising in the US, and the result was a semi-authoritarian and largely unqualified cabinet. So are Western values actually part of the Western character or a consequence of successful empire building and good economic conditions?