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The standard of evidence for a country with free press cannot and should not be compared to the standard of evidence for a country with no press freedom. China

by 42_ 6y ago

The standard of evidence for a country with free press cannot and should not be compared to the standard of evidence for a country with no press freedom. China controls flow of information so tightly, that even rumours should be considered credible unless proven otherwise.

cambalache 6y ago
Free press is a nebulous concept, especially considering that for all but the most naive or disingenuous person the mass media press is an indirect tool of the intelligence services of each country. > China controls flow of information so tightly, that even rumours should be considered credible unless proven otherwise. You could say exactly the same about the military occupation of every country, or are we getting the whole truth in Syria, Afghanistan, Yemen or Iraq? For me this a case of simply, "Since I am American/European I will believe my press" Well, I am not Chinese, neither American or European so I dont have that automatic loyalty nor prejudice.
- unityByFreedom 6y ago
  It isn't nebulous. In China you and your family disappear if you criticize the CCP, even if you do so while overseas. Elsewhere you may speak your mind without fear of being locked up or killed.
  - cambalache 6y ago
    > Elsewhere you may speak your mind without fear of being locked up or killed. Like Assange did? https://cpj.org/reports/2020/12/record-number-journalists-jailed-imprisoned/ https://cpj.org/reports/2020/12/record-number-journalists-ja... > This marks the fifth consecutive year that repressive governments have imprisoned at least 250 journalists. Lack of global leadership on democratic values – particularly from the United States, where President Donald Trump has inexhaustibly denigrated the press and cozied up to dictators such as Egyptian President Abdelfattah el-Sisi – has perpetuated the crisis. As authoritarians leveraged Trump’s “fake news” rhetoric to justify their actions – particularly in Egypt – the number of journalists jailed on “false news” charges steadily increased. This year, 34 journalists were jailed for “false news,” compared with 31 last year. > Within the United States, no journalists were jailed at the time of CPJ’s prison census, but an unprecedented 110 journalists were arrested or criminally charged in 2020 and around 300 were assaulted, the majority by law enforcement, according to the U.S. Press Freedom Tracker. At least 12 still face criminal charges, some of which carry jail terms. Observers told CPJ that the polarized political climate, militarized law enforcement, and vitriol toward the media combined during a wave of protests to eradicate norms that once afforded journalists police protection. But by all means keep believing in a black and white world.
    - unityByFreedom 6y ago
      CPJ, based in New York. Such an organization would never be allowed to exist in China. It is the likes of the CCP & Trump who would paint the world as black and white, i.e. you're either with me or against me. The rest of us acknowledge that press freedoms enable a spectrum of viewpoints.
      - cambalache 6y ago
        But you just said in the previous comment than A) Journalists were not jailed in the west. B) Freedom of the press was a clear cut issue. I would love to see how your brain works.
        unityByFreedom 6y ago
        Again, the organization you quoted would never be allowed to exist in China. Journalists are sometimes jailed, like any other person, they do not get exemption from breaking the law. They have significantly more latitude outside authoritarian countries.
    - tourist_ 6y ago
      The difference between authoritarian and democratic states is that CPJ wouldn't exist in authoritarian states. The very existence of a report which documents the actions against journalists wouldn't exist in authoritarian states. How hard is it to understand this ?
      - cambalache 6y ago
        Even the most authoritarians of the states have inside groups who oppose them (from the dictatorships in Chile and Argentina, to Saddam in Iraq, to Putin in Russia, to Trump in America), the groups can be more or less tolerated in function on how dangerous they are perceived. See the treatment of the black panther movement and the communist party in America. The narrative is created by powerful people usually with input of the state. Can you in all sincerity claim that the treatment of the Palestinians from the Israelis is not in the same league or even worst? And yet you dont hear anyone here talking about a genocide there and any criticism of Israel is swiftly called anti-Semitic. Manufacturing consent, good old Chomsky was right, as usual.
- tourist_ 6y ago
  I am also not Chinese, American or European, but I will say that prejudice is totally warranted against authoritarian regimes. Free press simply refers to an ability to present an opposing view point, which authoritarian governments despise.
  - cambalache 6y ago
    Where is the opposite point the western "free press" saying, maybe China is not committing Genocide? Because reading publications like The Economist, The New York Times or The Guardian you will never find it.Where is the opposite point in the mainstream press asking for GW Bush to be trialed as a war criminal (which he is)?
    - tourist_ 6y ago
      So according to your logic, both "x is True" "x is False" should appear side by side? That is not the meaning of free press.
      - cambalache 6y ago
        No, but nice strawman, congrats. According to my logic , if A does something wrong and it is heavily criticized in the press, when B does the same I expect the same level of criticism and that does not happen at all. Then it is obvious the press is responding to many incentives (political , economical, tribal) which make it not really that free.
    - Viliam1234 6y ago
      > Where is the opposite point the western "free press" saying, maybe China is not committing Genocide? For example, you are saing it here, on English-speaking website located in USA. And you are not scared of possible consequences for you and your family. I am pretty sure there are many better examples, but this one is here and now, and hard to deny.
approxim8ion 6y ago
>even rumours should be considered credible unless proven otherwise. That's rather convenient. Wonder if any global powers with a vested interest could take advantage of this mindset...
- 42_ 6y ago
  Yeah, its convenient, but even more convenient is the mindset of ignoring existing evidence and bending over backwards for the pleasure of profiting off cheap manufacturing.

by 42_ 6y ago

cambalache 6y ago

Free press is a nebulous concept, especially considering that for all but the most naive or disingenuous person the mass media press is an indirect tool of the intelligence services of each country. > China controls flow of information so tightly, that even rumours should be considered credible unless proven otherwise. You could say exactly the same about the military occupation of every country, or are we getting the whole truth in Syria, Afghanistan, Yemen or Iraq? For me this a case of simply, "Since I am American/European I will believe my press" Well, I am not Chinese, neither American or European so I dont have that automatic loyalty nor prejudice.

unityByFreedom 6y ago
It isn't nebulous. In China you and your family disappear if you criticize the CCP, even if you do so while overseas. Elsewhere you may speak your mind without fear of being locked up or killed.
- cambalache 6y ago
  > Elsewhere you may speak your mind without fear of being locked up or killed. Like Assange did? https://cpj.org/reports/2020/12/record-number-journalists-jailed-imprisoned/ https://cpj.org/reports/2020/12/record-number-journalists-ja... > This marks the fifth consecutive year that repressive governments have imprisoned at least 250 journalists. Lack of global leadership on democratic values – particularly from the United States, where President Donald Trump has inexhaustibly denigrated the press and cozied up to dictators such as Egyptian President Abdelfattah el-Sisi – has perpetuated the crisis. As authoritarians leveraged Trump’s “fake news” rhetoric to justify their actions – particularly in Egypt – the number of journalists jailed on “false news” charges steadily increased. This year, 34 journalists were jailed for “false news,” compared with 31 last year. > Within the United States, no journalists were jailed at the time of CPJ’s prison census, but an unprecedented 110 journalists were arrested or criminally charged in 2020 and around 300 were assaulted, the majority by law enforcement, according to the U.S. Press Freedom Tracker. At least 12 still face criminal charges, some of which carry jail terms. Observers told CPJ that the polarized political climate, militarized law enforcement, and vitriol toward the media combined during a wave of protests to eradicate norms that once afforded journalists police protection. But by all means keep believing in a black and white world.
  - unityByFreedom 6y ago
    CPJ, based in New York. Such an organization would never be allowed to exist in China. It is the likes of the CCP & Trump who would paint the world as black and white, i.e. you're either with me or against me. The rest of us acknowledge that press freedoms enable a spectrum of viewpoints.
    - cambalache 6y ago
      But you just said in the previous comment than A) Journalists were not jailed in the west. B) Freedom of the press was a clear cut issue. I would love to see how your brain works.
      - unityByFreedom 6y ago
        Again, the organization you quoted would never be allowed to exist in China. Journalists are sometimes jailed, like any other person, they do not get exemption from breaking the law. They have significantly more latitude outside authoritarian countries.
  - tourist_ 6y ago
    The difference between authoritarian and democratic states is that CPJ wouldn't exist in authoritarian states. The very existence of a report which documents the actions against journalists wouldn't exist in authoritarian states. How hard is it to understand this ?
    - cambalache 6y ago
      Even the most authoritarians of the states have inside groups who oppose them (from the dictatorships in Chile and Argentina, to Saddam in Iraq, to Putin in Russia, to Trump in America), the groups can be more or less tolerated in function on how dangerous they are perceived. See the treatment of the black panther movement and the communist party in America. The narrative is created by powerful people usually with input of the state. Can you in all sincerity claim that the treatment of the Palestinians from the Israelis is not in the same league or even worst? And yet you dont hear anyone here talking about a genocide there and any criticism of Israel is swiftly called anti-Semitic. Manufacturing consent, good old Chomsky was right, as usual.
tourist_ 6y ago
I am also not Chinese, American or European, but I will say that prejudice is totally warranted against authoritarian regimes. Free press simply refers to an ability to present an opposing view point, which authoritarian governments despise.
- cambalache 6y ago
  Where is the opposite point the western "free press" saying, maybe China is not committing Genocide? Because reading publications like The Economist, The New York Times or The Guardian you will never find it.Where is the opposite point in the mainstream press asking for GW Bush to be trialed as a war criminal (which he is)?
  - tourist_ 6y ago
    So according to your logic, both "x is True" "x is False" should appear side by side? That is not the meaning of free press.
    - cambalache 6y ago
      No, but nice strawman, congrats. According to my logic , if A does something wrong and it is heavily criticized in the press, when B does the same I expect the same level of criticism and that does not happen at all. Then it is obvious the press is responding to many incentives (political , economical, tribal) which make it not really that free.
  - Viliam1234 6y ago
    > Where is the opposite point the western "free press" saying, maybe China is not committing Genocide? For example, you are saing it here, on English-speaking website located in USA. And you are not scared of possible consequences for you and your family. I am pretty sure there are many better examples, but this one is here and now, and hard to deny.

approxim8ion 6y ago

>even rumours should be considered credible unless proven otherwise. That's rather convenient. Wonder if any global powers with a vested interest could take advantage of this mindset...

42_ 6y ago
Yeah, its convenient, but even more convenient is the mindset of ignoring existing evidence and bending over backwards for the pleasure of profiting off cheap manufacturing.