4 ms·

Why? I don't have anything to prove to you. Anytime I have chosen to engage with someone who has given a response like yours and chosen to give sources and exam

by Fogest 6y ago

Why? I don't have anything to prove to you. Anytime I have chosen to engage with someone who has given a response like yours and chosen to give sources and examples I am met with a ignorant response saying something like "you can't be racist towards white people". It's just not worth it for me to engage like that anymore. How about bringing a discussion to what I said rather than asking for random proof of what I said. Look literally anywhere on the internet and you'll find it pretty easily. Hell the AP News will capitalize Black but not White: https://apnews.com/article/7e36c00c5af0436abc09e051261fff1f https://apnews.com/article/7e36c00c5af0436abc09e051261fff1f Stuff like that is just one of hundreds of examples. That article is what I'd consider more of a "casual racism" whereas I also see a lot more direct racism as well. I'd personally rather be in a world where someone doesn't feel a need to specify someone's race before everything. People will add in race when it has no relevance or facts behind it. I am sure you have heard the phrase "privileged white male" before. I can't even count on both my hands how many times I've been told that. And I'll be told that without the person even knowing my level of privilege, my gender, or my race. When you oppose the current politically correct fad you'll be called racist and people will assume your gender and race and use it as a derogatory/racist statement. It will be used to dismiss and invalidate an opinion. For me personally my test is often pretty simple. If someone tries to dismiss an opinion by calling someone a "privileged white male" how would that be any better than dismissing someone's opinion for being black? To me they both are racist and just as bad in my mind. Neither is acceptable. Yet in todays society we know which one would be acceptable. As long as it's shitting on a white person or a male you're good to go.

onethought 6y ago
> If someone tries to dismiss an opinion by calling someone a "privileged white male" how would that be any better than dismissing someone's opinion for being black? Context matters... if you are in the position of privilege and saying things that you can only say because of your position. Then I can see why some people would dismiss it. The difference is: if you try to dismiss someone in a minority position for saying things that would be okay to say in a privileged position. Then you are just doubling down on that privilege. This isn't about "white privilege" vs "black privilege" this about privilege in general. Really empathy is the answer and understanding where they are coming from will help you not inadvertently offend them.
- ttt0 6y ago
  Not in this context. When "let's not base our judgements on race" is responded with "you're a privileged white male", we're never going to reach any agreement. It's simply not going to happen.
  - Fogest 6y ago
    Yeah this is exactly the kind of idea I am getting at. How can someone ever try and understand other peoples point of view if they are told "you don't understand" anytime they try and understand. Whenever my opinion is dismissed using my race/gender/or perceived privilege it instantly creates divide. It naturally is going to make me feel more correct in my views and more correct avoiding those kinds of people. This is exactly why we see such a huge divide now in America. People are unable to discuss stuff. And this is also probably partially due to the fact that often times people don't actually have any stats to back up what they think. Often times people are just following trends now and copying what their favourite woke influencer does. I find little people I engage with actually grasp what they are talking about and just regurgitate the same lines over and over. I've got to the point where I barely ever comment on any political sounding reddit post because I know the conversation is going to go nowhere and be filled with name-calling. And I hate that I feel like this. I want to be able to converse with people and try and understand their point of view. But unfortunately I just feel constantly attacked. Hell I mod a couple subs over there. If I make a comment that sounds conservative leaning upset banned users will go post it on subs I mod on acting like I am a "racist mod". Now I have to delete my reddit history often and use alts a lot more. Nowadays you can barely say anything without offending someone.
- Fogest 6y ago
  Then why would race be relevant? Why would someone not just say "you're too privileged to understand"? Why would they instead say "you're just a privileged white male and don't understand"? I disagree with that logic you are using. Your logic seems racist to me. You are assuming a black person = less privileged and a white person = more privileged. I view both of these assumptions as racist. I think it is wrong to associate a race with a level or privilege. I think it is wrong to assume someone's race, gender, and level of privilege due to a view someone holds. I think it is even more wrong to then use someone's race and gender to dismiss their points. If someone is having a discussion what positive effect would calling someone those derogatory (and in my opinion: racist) terms be helpful? It's not going to make me see their point of view. No matter how good of a rebuttal and explanation they may have had for me I am no longer going to care. Once someone is making assumptions and calling you names the whole conversation loses substance and value. This kind of bullshit just continues to propagate further divide and hatred between races. I think it is perfectly valid to think that maybe someone holds a viewpoint because of their status in life. But I don't think that is a valid reason to attack them. I would rather look at that as an opportunity to exchange views and have a conversation. But unfortunately especially on sites like Reddit I no longer am able to do that. I used to be able to, but now anytime I have a view that is slightly conservative leaning I am called names or called racist. And what's ironic is that I really couldn't give a shit about political sides or parties. I have a lot of views that would be classed as pretty "liberal" while I also have a lot of views that would be classed as pretty "conservative". For some reason there always has to be a divide. It always has to be an Us versus Them mentality. So people will assume status, race, gender in order to create an imaginary enemy and destroy any conversation that could be had. Whether you think someone's viewpoint is something typical of a "privileged white male" is not relevant to almost any conversation. If someone gives me a recipe online I don't assume they are a chef. Nor do I assume they don't know what they are talking about if they are not a chef. Someone being white or a male doesn't imply they are privileged. They may have had a harder life than most black people. I don't like using a stereotype to dismiss what someone else has to say. I think it is incredibly toxic and creates further hatred and divide. Nobody will ever understand the other "side" if they are viewed like an enemy they can't talk to.
thelock85 6y ago
> If someone tries to dismiss an opinion by calling someone a "privileged white male" how would that be any better than dismissing someone's opinion for being black? It would depend on the content and context of the opinion itself, no? Why not just ask the dismissing person why they say that? We’ve come to the point where we generalize and characterize instead of understanding, then simply disagreeing. > Yet in today’s society we know which one would be acceptable. As long as it’s shitting on a white person or a male you’re good to go. White men are getting shat on but still represent or control nearly all economic and political interests (at least in U.S. and it’s empire). I’m really curious to why you feel this way? It’s not like women and Black people have been getting a pass in exchange. I just think social media has made it easier for white men to be (or feel like) targets of vitriolic, but protected speech. Welcome to the club. From my perspective, it seems in finance, real estate and politics, going along with the “privileged white male” perception (even if an untrue of the person in question) still seems like the best way to take advantage of markets and institutions. And I suspect that’s why, given a megaphone and platform, everyone else is piling on.
- Fogest 6y ago
  > I’m really curious to why you feel this way? You actually answered this question yourself with your next paragraph :). Currently being racist towards white males gives businesses, influencers, and politicians more power. And I fundamentally disagree with this notion. I do not think shitting on particular groups of people should make someone excel. I think it should show what kind of negative person they are and they should lose not gain. Some of my problem stems from the fact that these phrases are used to dismiss peoples opinions. I am far from being conservative, and also wouldn't consider myself liberal. I hold many views that fall under both spectrums. Some may even be considered more radical on both ends. If I made a conservative sided comment online how do you think it would fair? Now if I made a liberal based comment how do you think that would fair in comparison? I think that the liberal ideology would gain me woke points and give me praise. Whereas that conservative view would get shat on, may be called some "ism", and then likely also would be called a "white privileged male". This would of course be used to dismiss the opinion/fact despite how true or accurate it may be. It is also making assumptions on race and gender simply based on a single opinion on a topic. My main issue is that this kind of thinking creates a divide. It's hard to have a conversation on many websites because people hurl insults and don't care to actually have a constructive conversation. I try and come into a conversation being open-minded. The problem I have faced lately is that I feel like I have been becoming more and more jaded and against the other "side". I really dislike this and have been working to try and avoid doing that. But everytime I hear these kind of rude comments it further affirms my believe while also preventing me from hearing what intelligent people on that "side" actually have to say. For example, people quite violently oppose Trump and Trump supporters. What doesn't make sense to me is why people would rather attack the group of people instead of trying to share their opinion. If there opinion is based on facts/research/science you'd think they would want to engage with the other side and try and get more people to share their opinion. But instead social media and society lately discourages this. It always has to be them versus us. There is no middle ground. Hell people get called "alt-right" and "nazis" for some pretty tame conservative views. I personally think calling someone a "nazi" is very extreme, yet the word gets thrown around like it means nothing. As a side note I find it quite ironic that these same people using these extreme words also will try to police what words others can use that they deem "offensive".

by Fogest 6y ago

onethought 6y ago

> If someone tries to dismiss an opinion by calling someone a "privileged white male" how would that be any better than dismissing someone's opinion for being black? Context matters... if you are in the position of privilege and saying things that you can only say because of your position. Then I can see why some people would dismiss it. The difference is: if you try to dismiss someone in a minority position for saying things that would be okay to say in a privileged position. Then you are just doubling down on that privilege. This isn't about "white privilege" vs "black privilege" this about privilege in general. Really empathy is the answer and understanding where they are coming from will help you not inadvertently offend them.

ttt0 6y ago
Not in this context. When "let's not base our judgements on race" is responded with "you're a privileged white male", we're never going to reach any agreement. It's simply not going to happen.
- Fogest 6y ago
  Yeah this is exactly the kind of idea I am getting at. How can someone ever try and understand other peoples point of view if they are told "you don't understand" anytime they try and understand. Whenever my opinion is dismissed using my race/gender/or perceived privilege it instantly creates divide. It naturally is going to make me feel more correct in my views and more correct avoiding those kinds of people. This is exactly why we see such a huge divide now in America. People are unable to discuss stuff. And this is also probably partially due to the fact that often times people don't actually have any stats to back up what they think. Often times people are just following trends now and copying what their favourite woke influencer does. I find little people I engage with actually grasp what they are talking about and just regurgitate the same lines over and over. I've got to the point where I barely ever comment on any political sounding reddit post because I know the conversation is going to go nowhere and be filled with name-calling. And I hate that I feel like this. I want to be able to converse with people and try and understand their point of view. But unfortunately I just feel constantly attacked. Hell I mod a couple subs over there. If I make a comment that sounds conservative leaning upset banned users will go post it on subs I mod on acting like I am a "racist mod". Now I have to delete my reddit history often and use alts a lot more. Nowadays you can barely say anything without offending someone.
Fogest 6y ago
Then why would race be relevant? Why would someone not just say "you're too privileged to understand"? Why would they instead say "you're just a privileged white male and don't understand"? I disagree with that logic you are using. Your logic seems racist to me. You are assuming a black person = less privileged and a white person = more privileged. I view both of these assumptions as racist. I think it is wrong to associate a race with a level or privilege. I think it is wrong to assume someone's race, gender, and level of privilege due to a view someone holds. I think it is even more wrong to then use someone's race and gender to dismiss their points. If someone is having a discussion what positive effect would calling someone those derogatory (and in my opinion: racist) terms be helpful? It's not going to make me see their point of view. No matter how good of a rebuttal and explanation they may have had for me I am no longer going to care. Once someone is making assumptions and calling you names the whole conversation loses substance and value. This kind of bullshit just continues to propagate further divide and hatred between races. I think it is perfectly valid to think that maybe someone holds a viewpoint because of their status in life. But I don't think that is a valid reason to attack them. I would rather look at that as an opportunity to exchange views and have a conversation. But unfortunately especially on sites like Reddit I no longer am able to do that. I used to be able to, but now anytime I have a view that is slightly conservative leaning I am called names or called racist. And what's ironic is that I really couldn't give a shit about political sides or parties. I have a lot of views that would be classed as pretty "liberal" while I also have a lot of views that would be classed as pretty "conservative". For some reason there always has to be a divide. It always has to be an Us versus Them mentality. So people will assume status, race, gender in order to create an imaginary enemy and destroy any conversation that could be had. Whether you think someone's viewpoint is something typical of a "privileged white male" is not relevant to almost any conversation. If someone gives me a recipe online I don't assume they are a chef. Nor do I assume they don't know what they are talking about if they are not a chef. Someone being white or a male doesn't imply they are privileged. They may have had a harder life than most black people. I don't like using a stereotype to dismiss what someone else has to say. I think it is incredibly toxic and creates further hatred and divide. Nobody will ever understand the other "side" if they are viewed like an enemy they can't talk to.

thelock85 6y ago

> If someone tries to dismiss an opinion by calling someone a "privileged white male" how would that be any better than dismissing someone's opinion for being black? It would depend on the content and context of the opinion itself, no? Why not just ask the dismissing person why they say that? We’ve come to the point where we generalize and characterize instead of understanding, then simply disagreeing. > Yet in today’s society we know which one would be acceptable. As long as it’s shitting on a white person or a male you’re good to go. White men are getting shat on but still represent or control nearly all economic and political interests (at least in U.S. and it’s empire). I’m really curious to why you feel this way? It’s not like women and Black people have been getting a pass in exchange. I just think social media has made it easier for white men to be (or feel like) targets of vitriolic, but protected speech. Welcome to the club. From my perspective, it seems in finance, real estate and politics, going along with the “privileged white male” perception (even if an untrue of the person in question) still seems like the best way to take advantage of markets and institutions. And I suspect that’s why, given a megaphone and platform, everyone else is piling on.

Fogest 6y ago
> I’m really curious to why you feel this way? You actually answered this question yourself with your next paragraph :). Currently being racist towards white males gives businesses, influencers, and politicians more power. And I fundamentally disagree with this notion. I do not think shitting on particular groups of people should make someone excel. I think it should show what kind of negative person they are and they should lose not gain. Some of my problem stems from the fact that these phrases are used to dismiss peoples opinions. I am far from being conservative, and also wouldn't consider myself liberal. I hold many views that fall under both spectrums. Some may even be considered more radical on both ends. If I made a conservative sided comment online how do you think it would fair? Now if I made a liberal based comment how do you think that would fair in comparison? I think that the liberal ideology would gain me woke points and give me praise. Whereas that conservative view would get shat on, may be called some "ism", and then likely also would be called a "white privileged male". This would of course be used to dismiss the opinion/fact despite how true or accurate it may be. It is also making assumptions on race and gender simply based on a single opinion on a topic. My main issue is that this kind of thinking creates a divide. It's hard to have a conversation on many websites because people hurl insults and don't care to actually have a constructive conversation. I try and come into a conversation being open-minded. The problem I have faced lately is that I feel like I have been becoming more and more jaded and against the other "side". I really dislike this and have been working to try and avoid doing that. But everytime I hear these kind of rude comments it further affirms my believe while also preventing me from hearing what intelligent people on that "side" actually have to say. For example, people quite violently oppose Trump and Trump supporters. What doesn't make sense to me is why people would rather attack the group of people instead of trying to share their opinion. If there opinion is based on facts/research/science you'd think they would want to engage with the other side and try and get more people to share their opinion. But instead social media and society lately discourages this. It always has to be them versus us. There is no middle ground. Hell people get called "alt-right" and "nazis" for some pretty tame conservative views. I personally think calling someone a "nazi" is very extreme, yet the word gets thrown around like it means nothing. As a side note I find it quite ironic that these same people using these extreme words also will try to police what words others can use that they deem "offensive".