6 ms·

I love Singapore, except for the climate, which is oppressive. There is amazing hawker (street) food everywhere and, thanks for strict enforcement of health re

by cletus 15y ago

I love Singapore, except for the climate, which is oppressive. There is amazing hawker (street) food everywhere and, thanks for strict enforcement of health regulations, it's pretty cheap too. At least it was. It's been a few years since I was there. I kinda view Singapore as the Zurich of Asia. Zurich (and Switzerland in general) is very regulated (although Singapore more than Zurich; there are no rules against chewing gum in Zurich). Both cities are clean, almost sterile, safe and they basically work (public transport and other infrastructure). Some people chafe against what they feel is an intrusion. You see those same opinions about New York where I now live. Some feel that NYC has lost a lot of the "grit" or "character" that it once had (back when, you know, muggings were common). One wonders at the psychology of danger and character going hand in hand. For those who think Singapore is overly-regulated, which it is, you have to remember that English-speaking countries are pretty much an outlier. In continental Europe there are rules about everything, from how to throw out the trash to have to register with the government every time you move and what kinds of window treatments you're allowed to use. When I worked in Zurich a colleague once described it succinctly: in England (and, by extension, the US, Canada and Australia) you can do whatever you want except for those things that are banned. On the mainland (of Europe) you can't do anything unless it's specifically allowed. While not true in the strictest sense, that delineation that is tantamount to blacklisting vs whitelisting does, at least in my experience, embody a lot of the cultural differences between English speaking and non English speaking developed nations. That guy's wife is Finnish and she found it unnerving in England. She wanted that structure of essentially being told what to do and how to do it (within limits). The only thing I don't really like about Singapore (apart from the weather)--and this is probably true of most Asian countries--is the importance of face time at work. You're expected to be at work a lot even if you're not doing anything. That whole "appearance of work" thing and regimented approach to work in general (ie being very much concerned with the process rather than the results) is something that I've always chafed against.

Daniel14 15y ago
I live near Zurich but don't perceive the rules to be anywhere near as strict as you described, and would certainly not talk about "being told what to do" by the state. In Singapur, there are lots of laws unimaginable in Switzerland (for example, it's forbidden to smoke in public, you go to jail for speeding/driving while drunk, spitting or chewing gum, you'll t get killed for possessing drugs...). In Switzerland, what I believe causes the low criminality rate is the even lower poverty rate because of the strong social system. What would be called socialist in the States is completely normal here in Europe, and often results in a much better quality of life for everyone living here.
- cletus 15y ago
  Well, in all fairness, Switzerland is much like Monaco, Beverly Hills and certain Carribean islands in that its poverty is essentially exported. Switzerland makes it very difficult to become a citizen unless you're born to at least one Swiss parent or you marry a Swiss citizen (there are people whose families have been living in Switzerland since the 20s who can't become citizens). There are a large contingent of workers who work in Switzerland every day but don't live there (and, in fact, aren't allowed to even if they wanted to and could afford it), particular in Geneva. It's also one of the most expensive countries on Earth. So, I wouldn't say the low crime rates are so much a question of effective social policy but rather of being both wealthy and exclusionary. Yes, laws are different between the two and certainly there are cultural differences too. Zurich is very definitely (mainland) European. Singapore is quite definitely Asian. There are severe penalties on drug trafficking because it's a big problem, with proximity to the Golden Triangle and so on. Singapore is also surrounded by Indonesia and Malaysia, places where the illicit trades have far more freedom of movement. Singapore, with some justification, seeks to avoid being a conduit or waypoint or (even worse) a destination for the drug trade. The no smoking in public thing I consider a huge plus. The chewing gum thing is a bit weird. I think it has something to do with vandalism. As for Zurich being strict, I imagine you don't view them that way because you're accustomed to them. Throwing out trash is a classic example. First you have to buy Zurisache (sp?) for like 2 CHF each. Throwing them out in anything else can get you fined. Then you have to separate your trash into three different types of glass (white, brown, green), other recyclables and non-recyclables. Where you see trash cans in public there are like 6-7 different cans for the different categories of trash. Newspapers and possibly other forms of paper (I forget) had to be thrown out on different days to regular trash. Those had to be tied with string in a neat bundle. All of the above is enforced by the Mutzpolizei (literally "trash police"). The anmelden/abmelden (registration) system, which is the norm on mainland Europe, is extremely weird--even invasive--to most people from English speaking countries. In Switzerland, depending on what Canton you live in, you can't make excessive noise after 10pm or before 7am (which I actually appreciate). In Zurich in some buildings this extended to regulations in certain apartments prohibiting men from urinating while standing up at those times (due to thin walls; this was deemed "excessive noise"). Some cantons also prohibited "excessive noise" or work on Sundays (for the entire day). IIRC there were given days where you were and weren't allowed to move house. Switzerland has its fair share of regulation is all I'm saying.
htht00 15y ago
Singapore actually has one of the freest economies in the world, with an extremely friendly business environment that is free of trade barriers and free of strict regulations. Yup, it's ranked #1 on the Ease of Doing Business Index: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ease_of_Doing_Business_Index http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ease_of_Doing_Business_Index
robak 15y ago
You say: "When I worked in Zurich a colleague once described it succinctly: in England (and, by extension, the US, Canada and Australia) you can do whatever you want except for those things that are banned. On the mainland (of Europe) you can't do anything unless it's specifically allowed." As an European I tend to disagree. You confused 'mainland Europe" with German-speaking parts of Europe (Switzerland, Germany, Austria, Denmark, Sweden, Finland, Norway). Trust me you will feel even more free than in the UK when living in France, Italy, Spain, Portugal, Greece... and then once you hit Eastern Europe - Poland, Slovakia, Croatia, etc. - you can be pretty safe by actually doing everything OPPOSITE to what the law, authorities, etc. tell you to do. Don't confuse Germany with whole Europe. I find it personally offensive. It's like saying that US is like Mexico just because you lived in certain parts of LA.
z303 15y ago
It sound like your describing Positive liberty vs. Negative liberty, and yes coming from the UK I do find the rules in mainland Europe at time strange. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Positive_liberty http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Positive_liberty http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Negative_liberty http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Negative_liberty
- evangineer 15y ago
  Thanks for the links. This actually relates to a paper that I've been collaborating on. BTW, Isaiah Berlin's concepts of liberty featured quite strongly in the Adam Curtis documentary series The Trap: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Trap_(television_documentary_series) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Trap_(television_documentar...
  - z303 15y ago
    I do like Adam Curtis' work, caught up on the first two episodes of All Watched Over by Machines of Loving Grace this weekend, lots to think about, which is a good thing http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/All_Watched_Over_by_Machines_of_Loving_Grace_(television_documentary_series) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/All_Watched_Over_by_Machines_of...
bluedanieru 15y ago
It's not the rules that keep me out of Singapore it's the disproportionate response for breaking them. I don't mind if a place I'm visiting doesn't want me to chew gum or has a law about flushing the toilet, and I think for both of these the punishment is (high) fines so it's only money. But death penalty for drug possession? Count me out. Not that I would bring drugs there, but in any civilized nation the worst thing that could happen if I were falsely accused and could not prove my innocence is a variable amount of jail time. In Singapore, I would die. You might argue that this could be said of any country with capital punishment and you'd be correct, however for Singapore it applies to more crimes and is administered more freely. Singapore is a dangerous country.
- kablamo 15y ago
  I'm not a fan of the death penalty. But to be afraid of dying in Singapore is silly. Singapore is probably the safest country on the planet. There is no crime. No natural disasters. A good, cheap medical system. A great transportation system. A booming economy. All things that make you safer and live longer. I just moved to London from Singapore and I don't understand why westerners put up with such high levels of crime. Its awesome to be able to ride the train at night and walk through any park or dark street anywhere in a major city at 1am and feel completely 100% safe. Westerners distrust government because government sucks in the West. They tax you at high rates and give you long lines and crappy service. In Singapore government works. It produces jobs, every government form is online and the rules are ALL practical and actually make sense (unlike the west). Policemen are polite and courteous. My Singaporian wife paid 5% in taxes last year btw. And above all its safe to go for a run at night!
  - randallsquared 15y ago
    And above all its safe to go for a run at night! ...unless it turns out to be illegal to go for a run at night, in which case it's terribly unsafe, and there's no way for a person from a "legal to run at night" country to know without checking. Now, you might say, "Well, that's ridiculous; there's no reason why it would be illegal to run at night," but I think I can come up with at least as good reasons for making that illegal as for banning chewing gum. Making things illegal when there is no obvious reason for them to be illegal creates uncertainty and doubt; mixing in life-altering punishments provides fear, as well.
cageface 15y ago
I think Berlin has managed to strike an excellent balance. It's quite safe, but has a uniquely vibrant artistic community and has as much "grit" or cleanliness as you like. I like Vietnam for similar reasons. It can be edgy but not really dangerous.
- hessenwolf 15y ago
  Gentrification's Victims: Berlin Fears Rise of New Slums http://www.spiegel.de/international/germany/0,1518,748532,00.html http://www.spiegel.de/international/germany/0,1518,748532,00...
danssig 15y ago
>to have to register with the government every time you move Well, the US keeps track of where you are based on tax returns. The difference is that in Switzerland I'm somewhere on a map and if I move I show up in a new place on the map the day I move there. In the US I'll still be where I was until tax returns come in, at which point everyone's location is updated. It's like a population status screen where Switzerland has a real-time refresh rate and the US has up to 1 year lag time. >and, by extension, the US No, not by extension the US. He probably mentioned this specifically because he saw you were American. Brits take particular delight in telling us yanks about how they don't have any constitution that outlines what their rights are. >differences between English speaking and non English speaking developed nations. Again, these are some pretty broad strokes. A Swiss friend of mine pointed out the difference between Germany and Switzerland is that for Germany the people are there to serve the government, while in Switzerland it is the other way around (and that's a broad statement of itself, but there are fundamental difference between the two. See tax rates). So the demarcation is not English/non-English. >is the importance of face time at work. I have yet to find a place where this wasn't the case. Perhaps it's more extreme in Asia but every place I've ever been has it. Personally I think "face time" is more about tradition than culture. The internet has created new ways of providing value and not everyone has caught up yet.

by cletus 15y ago

Daniel14 15y ago

I live near Zurich but don't perceive the rules to be anywhere near as strict as you described, and would certainly not talk about "being told what to do" by the state. In Singapur, there are lots of laws unimaginable in Switzerland (for example, it's forbidden to smoke in public, you go to jail for speeding/driving while drunk, spitting or chewing gum, you'll t get killed for possessing drugs...). In Switzerland, what I believe causes the low criminality rate is the even lower poverty rate because of the strong social system. What would be called socialist in the States is completely normal here in Europe, and often results in a much better quality of life for everyone living here.

cletus 15y ago
Well, in all fairness, Switzerland is much like Monaco, Beverly Hills and certain Carribean islands in that its poverty is essentially exported. Switzerland makes it very difficult to become a citizen unless you're born to at least one Swiss parent or you marry a Swiss citizen (there are people whose families have been living in Switzerland since the 20s who can't become citizens). There are a large contingent of workers who work in Switzerland every day but don't live there (and, in fact, aren't allowed to even if they wanted to and could afford it), particular in Geneva. It's also one of the most expensive countries on Earth. So, I wouldn't say the low crime rates are so much a question of effective social policy but rather of being both wealthy and exclusionary. Yes, laws are different between the two and certainly there are cultural differences too. Zurich is very definitely (mainland) European. Singapore is quite definitely Asian. There are severe penalties on drug trafficking because it's a big problem, with proximity to the Golden Triangle and so on. Singapore is also surrounded by Indonesia and Malaysia, places where the illicit trades have far more freedom of movement. Singapore, with some justification, seeks to avoid being a conduit or waypoint or (even worse) a destination for the drug trade. The no smoking in public thing I consider a huge plus. The chewing gum thing is a bit weird. I think it has something to do with vandalism. As for Zurich being strict, I imagine you don't view them that way because you're accustomed to them. Throwing out trash is a classic example. First you have to buy Zurisache (sp?) for like 2 CHF each. Throwing them out in anything else can get you fined. Then you have to separate your trash into three different types of glass (white, brown, green), other recyclables and non-recyclables. Where you see trash cans in public there are like 6-7 different cans for the different categories of trash. Newspapers and possibly other forms of paper (I forget) had to be thrown out on different days to regular trash. Those had to be tied with string in a neat bundle. All of the above is enforced by the Mutzpolizei (literally "trash police"). The anmelden/abmelden (registration) system, which is the norm on mainland Europe, is extremely weird--even invasive--to most people from English speaking countries. In Switzerland, depending on what Canton you live in, you can't make excessive noise after 10pm or before 7am (which I actually appreciate). In Zurich in some buildings this extended to regulations in certain apartments prohibiting men from urinating while standing up at those times (due to thin walls; this was deemed "excessive noise"). Some cantons also prohibited "excessive noise" or work on Sundays (for the entire day). IIRC there were given days where you were and weren't allowed to move house. Switzerland has its fair share of regulation is all I'm saying.

htht00 15y ago

Singapore actually has one of the freest economies in the world, with an extremely friendly business environment that is free of trade barriers and free of strict regulations. Yup, it's ranked #1 on the Ease of Doing Business Index: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ease_of_Doing_Business_Index http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ease_of_Doing_Business_Index

robak 15y ago

You say: "When I worked in Zurich a colleague once described it succinctly: in England (and, by extension, the US, Canada and Australia) you can do whatever you want except for those things that are banned. On the mainland (of Europe) you can't do anything unless it's specifically allowed." As an European I tend to disagree. You confused 'mainland Europe" with German-speaking parts of Europe (Switzerland, Germany, Austria, Denmark, Sweden, Finland, Norway). Trust me you will feel even more free than in the UK when living in France, Italy, Spain, Portugal, Greece... and then once you hit Eastern Europe - Poland, Slovakia, Croatia, etc. - you can be pretty safe by actually doing everything OPPOSITE to what the law, authorities, etc. tell you to do. Don't confuse Germany with whole Europe. I find it personally offensive. It's like saying that US is like Mexico just because you lived in certain parts of LA.

z303 15y ago

It sound like your describing Positive liberty vs. Negative liberty, and yes coming from the UK I do find the rules in mainland Europe at time strange. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Positive_liberty http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Positive_liberty http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Negative_liberty http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Negative_liberty

evangineer 15y ago
Thanks for the links. This actually relates to a paper that I've been collaborating on. BTW, Isaiah Berlin's concepts of liberty featured quite strongly in the Adam Curtis documentary series The Trap: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Trap_(television_documentary_series) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Trap_(television_documentar...
- z303 15y ago
  I do like Adam Curtis' work, caught up on the first two episodes of All Watched Over by Machines of Loving Grace this weekend, lots to think about, which is a good thing http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/All_Watched_Over_by_Machines_of_Loving_Grace_(television_documentary_series) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/All_Watched_Over_by_Machines_of...

bluedanieru 15y ago

It's not the rules that keep me out of Singapore it's the disproportionate response for breaking them. I don't mind if a place I'm visiting doesn't want me to chew gum or has a law about flushing the toilet, and I think for both of these the punishment is (high) fines so it's only money. But death penalty for drug possession? Count me out. Not that I would bring drugs there, but in any civilized nation the worst thing that could happen if I were falsely accused and could not prove my innocence is a variable amount of jail time. In Singapore, I would die. You might argue that this could be said of any country with capital punishment and you'd be correct, however for Singapore it applies to more crimes and is administered more freely. Singapore is a dangerous country.

kablamo 15y ago
I'm not a fan of the death penalty. But to be afraid of dying in Singapore is silly. Singapore is probably the safest country on the planet. There is no crime. No natural disasters. A good, cheap medical system. A great transportation system. A booming economy. All things that make you safer and live longer. I just moved to London from Singapore and I don't understand why westerners put up with such high levels of crime. Its awesome to be able to ride the train at night and walk through any park or dark street anywhere in a major city at 1am and feel completely 100% safe. Westerners distrust government because government sucks in the West. They tax you at high rates and give you long lines and crappy service. In Singapore government works. It produces jobs, every government form is online and the rules are ALL practical and actually make sense (unlike the west). Policemen are polite and courteous. My Singaporian wife paid 5% in taxes last year btw. And above all its safe to go for a run at night!
- randallsquared 15y ago
  And above all its safe to go for a run at night! ...unless it turns out to be illegal to go for a run at night, in which case it's terribly unsafe, and there's no way for a person from a "legal to run at night" country to know without checking. Now, you might say, "Well, that's ridiculous; there's no reason why it would be illegal to run at night," but I think I can come up with at least as good reasons for making that illegal as for banning chewing gum. Making things illegal when there is no obvious reason for them to be illegal creates uncertainty and doubt; mixing in life-altering punishments provides fear, as well.

cageface 15y ago

I think Berlin has managed to strike an excellent balance. It's quite safe, but has a uniquely vibrant artistic community and has as much "grit" or cleanliness as you like. I like Vietnam for similar reasons. It can be edgy but not really dangerous.

hessenwolf 15y ago
Gentrification's Victims: Berlin Fears Rise of New Slums http://www.spiegel.de/international/germany/0,1518,748532,00.html http://www.spiegel.de/international/germany/0,1518,748532,00...

danssig 15y ago

>to have to register with the government every time you move Well, the US keeps track of where you are based on tax returns. The difference is that in Switzerland I'm somewhere on a map and if I move I show up in a new place on the map the day I move there. In the US I'll still be where I was until tax returns come in, at which point everyone's location is updated. It's like a population status screen where Switzerland has a real-time refresh rate and the US has up to 1 year lag time. >and, by extension, the US No, not by extension the US. He probably mentioned this specifically because he saw you were American. Brits take particular delight in telling us yanks about how they don't have any constitution that outlines what their rights are. >differences between English speaking and non English speaking developed nations. Again, these are some pretty broad strokes. A Swiss friend of mine pointed out the difference between Germany and Switzerland is that for Germany the people are there to serve the government, while in Switzerland it is the other way around (and that's a broad statement of itself, but there are fundamental difference between the two. See tax rates). So the demarcation is not English/non-English. >is the importance of face time at work. I have yet to find a place where this wasn't the case. Perhaps it's more extreme in Asia but every place I've ever been has it. Personally I think "face time" is more about tradition than culture. The internet has created new ways of providing value and not everyone has caught up yet.