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My loose impression is that the countries that did the best are islands: Taiwan, Australia, New Zealand. South Korea is effectively an island since its only lan

My loose impression is that the countries that did the best are islands: Taiwan, Australia, New Zealand. South Korea is effectively an island since its only land border is locked down. Could this be an important factor?

Isinlor 6y ago
Finland and Norway are doing great. Finland has 131 deaths per million, Norway 111, while Sweden has 1247. And Sweden is right between Finland and Norway.
- jussij 6y ago
  And lets not forget Finland shares a border with Russia, a country that has struggled to control COVID-19.
  - Jommi 6y ago
    Finland is effectively an island too - esp with the border restrictions with Russia currently.
    - Isinlor 6y ago
      Finland is certainly not an island. Their government have even problems imposing mandatory tests on borders due to constitutional restrictions. There is practically uncontrolled traffic from Sweden and indeed a lot more controlled traffic from Russia. They have also regular ferry traffic from Estonia. Sweden is right between Finland and Norway. Sweden has 1,247 deaths per million, Finland 131 and Norway 111.
      - jussij 6y ago
        And Russian deaths running at 1538 per million.
- monkeydreams 6y ago
  I don't know about Finland off the top of my head, but didn't Norway's king just blast the government over their slipshod handling of COVID? Norway [Sweden actually] thought they could have the best of both worlds and shoot for herd immunity, and they ended up with a load of premature deaths and an economic malaise because no one wanted to be the person to take the viral hit for the good of the economy. Edit: Wrong country.
  - chokolad 6y ago
    That was Sweden, not Norway.
    - Isinlor 6y ago
      Indeed, Sweden has 1247 deaths per million, Finland 131 and Norway 111.
      - monkeydreams 6y ago
        Aah, I am mistaken. My apologies.
monkeydreams 6y ago
One critical factor in Australia was border control. This was not just limited to national borders - there were state border control involved as well. If you came through a border (and if you were allowed to come through at all) between a "red zone" and a "green zone" you HAD to undergo quarantine. Now imagine telling citizens of Germany that they have to quarantine for two weeks, unable to go anywhere, etc, if they crossed over from the Netherlands. Or imagine telling a citizen of the US that their quick trip between NJ and NY means they are now stuck inside for 2 weeks. The islands locked down and locked down hard. This might be because it is easier on an island, but it might also be the island mentality that everywhere is a long way from here and we don't want there's troubles coming here if we can stop it. Edit: Another bullet in the "Islands do it geographically" theory also come from Australia. Australia had 700+ new infections a day at one point. This occurred in only one state, with all other neighbouring states seeing near zero infections due to state border controls. By quarantining and mask compliance and curfews within that state, AND a social welfare system which picked up the economic fragments and put them back together, Australia was able to bring this down to zero daily infections.
- II2II 6y ago
  Atlantic Canada took a similar approach, and has managed to keep the spread under relative control. While there are periodic outbreaks, numbers are low compared to the national numbers. An "island mentality" may be playing a role since the only land connections are with the U.S. and Quebec, both of which were hit particularly hard early in the pandemic.
- AndrewBissell 6y ago
  We also should not forget that Australia takes any seaborne migrants trying to come into the country and puts them in refugee camps (and New Zealand largely does not have to deal with such migrant flows by virtue of being more distant and isolated than Australia).
  - shard972 6y ago
    Yep and it works wonders for us unlike the EU and the US who love to complain about it but then constantly deal with their own migration issues constantly and see horrific outcomes far worse than here.
nanagojo 6y ago
UK is an island
- messe 6y ago
  An island and a bit. It has a land border with another nation.
markdown 6y ago
You don't have to be an island. You just have to want to control covid. Restrict cross-border movement, lockdown early and properly when outbreaks occur, track and trace... basically, the things the experts said would work before COVID was a thing, worked.
olliej 6y ago
England is also an island. Iceland is an island. Australia has multiple states with different infection levels, and limited interstate travel until so there wasn’t spread back to resolves states. The only countries that actually implemented these policies also happen to be “islands” which is being used as an excuse for poor management in other countries.
- messe 6y ago
  > England is also an island. The UK, which England is a part of, has a land border with another sovereign state.
sanp 6y ago
Yeah. Lets attribute this to geography. Not good policy executed well. Taiwan and SK are some of the most dense countries on the planet and they were able to keep this in control.
LatteLazy 6y ago
I think it helps. On the other hand, the UK has done atrociously. I think the core difference here is taking things seriously. Neither the UK nor the US has actually taken this seriously. Here in greater London, masks are still not really compulsory in shops or on transport. Meetings of large numbers of people continue etc. The reason I like Aus as an example is that they are so similar to us (apologies if I'm incorrect assuming you're a brit, American or other anglo national): they're a democratic, Liberal, aging, right wing governed, capitalist, using English common law, mostly white, trading, federal, developed urbanised, nation. What did they do that we didn't? They took more action quicker. They actually enforced lockdown. They aimed to minimise covid numbers instead of maximising them.
- AndrewBissell 6y ago
  > On the other hand, the UK has done atrociously. I think the core difference here is taking things seriously. Neither the UK nor the US has actually taken this seriously. Is it your belief that Japan (which experienced some significant community spread this winter) is "not taking this seriously"? Do you think that's true of every European country that has had large outbreaks? What do you make of there being relatively little relationship among the different U.S. states between severity of lockdown policies and cases/deaths? This is ultimately a kind of non-falsifiable hypothesis. If significant endemic spread occurs, it is simply because they "didn't take it seriously" (and there are always at least a few malingering rule breakers who can be blamed no matter where you're looking). The only data points which are examined are places where there was either strict lockdown and no spread, or "something less than" strict lockdown and some significant spread, even though globally there is a broad mix of outcomes which calls the whole relationship of lockdown severity to Covid case counts into question. I agree that earlier action might have spared us a lot of grief (although I'm not sure how long the necessary border and travel restrictions realistically could have been maintained, or whether contact tracing would have had wide buy-in), but in the timeframe it could have been done (i.e. before there was significant community spread in the U.S.) most of the people we are now admonished to defer to as "experts" were saying to be worried about the flu, bungling the testing situation, etc.

Isinlor 6y ago

Finland and Norway are doing great. Finland has 131 deaths per million, Norway 111, while Sweden has 1247. And Sweden is right between Finland and Norway.

jussij 6y ago
And lets not forget Finland shares a border with Russia, a country that has struggled to control COVID-19.
- Jommi 6y ago
  Finland is effectively an island too - esp with the border restrictions with Russia currently.
  - Isinlor 6y ago
    Finland is certainly not an island. Their government have even problems imposing mandatory tests on borders due to constitutional restrictions. There is practically uncontrolled traffic from Sweden and indeed a lot more controlled traffic from Russia. They have also regular ferry traffic from Estonia. Sweden is right between Finland and Norway. Sweden has 1,247 deaths per million, Finland 131 and Norway 111.
    - jussij 6y ago
      And Russian deaths running at 1538 per million.
monkeydreams 6y ago
I don't know about Finland off the top of my head, but didn't Norway's king just blast the government over their slipshod handling of COVID? Norway [Sweden actually] thought they could have the best of both worlds and shoot for herd immunity, and they ended up with a load of premature deaths and an economic malaise because no one wanted to be the person to take the viral hit for the good of the economy. Edit: Wrong country.
- chokolad 6y ago
  That was Sweden, not Norway.
  - Isinlor 6y ago
    Indeed, Sweden has 1247 deaths per million, Finland 131 and Norway 111.
    - monkeydreams 6y ago
      Aah, I am mistaken. My apologies.

monkeydreams 6y ago

One critical factor in Australia was border control. This was not just limited to national borders - there were state border control involved as well. If you came through a border (and if you were allowed to come through at all) between a "red zone" and a "green zone" you HAD to undergo quarantine. Now imagine telling citizens of Germany that they have to quarantine for two weeks, unable to go anywhere, etc, if they crossed over from the Netherlands. Or imagine telling a citizen of the US that their quick trip between NJ and NY means they are now stuck inside for 2 weeks. The islands locked down and locked down hard. This might be because it is easier on an island, but it might also be the island mentality that everywhere is a long way from here and we don't want there's troubles coming here if we can stop it. Edit: Another bullet in the "Islands do it geographically" theory also come from Australia. Australia had 700+ new infections a day at one point. This occurred in only one state, with all other neighbouring states seeing near zero infections due to state border controls. By quarantining and mask compliance and curfews within that state, AND a social welfare system which picked up the economic fragments and put them back together, Australia was able to bring this down to zero daily infections.

II2II 6y ago
Atlantic Canada took a similar approach, and has managed to keep the spread under relative control. While there are periodic outbreaks, numbers are low compared to the national numbers. An "island mentality" may be playing a role since the only land connections are with the U.S. and Quebec, both of which were hit particularly hard early in the pandemic.
AndrewBissell 6y ago
We also should not forget that Australia takes any seaborne migrants trying to come into the country and puts them in refugee camps (and New Zealand largely does not have to deal with such migrant flows by virtue of being more distant and isolated than Australia).
- shard972 6y ago
  Yep and it works wonders for us unlike the EU and the US who love to complain about it but then constantly deal with their own migration issues constantly and see horrific outcomes far worse than here.

nanagojo 6y ago

UK is an island

messe 6y ago
An island and a bit. It has a land border with another nation.

markdown 6y ago

You don't have to be an island. You just have to want to control covid. Restrict cross-border movement, lockdown early and properly when outbreaks occur, track and trace... basically, the things the experts said would work before COVID was a thing, worked.

olliej 6y ago

England is also an island. Iceland is an island. Australia has multiple states with different infection levels, and limited interstate travel until so there wasn’t spread back to resolves states. The only countries that actually implemented these policies also happen to be “islands” which is being used as an excuse for poor management in other countries.

messe 6y ago
> England is also an island. The UK, which England is a part of, has a land border with another sovereign state.

sanp 6y ago

Yeah. Lets attribute this to geography. Not good policy executed well. Taiwan and SK are some of the most dense countries on the planet and they were able to keep this in control.

LatteLazy 6y ago

I think it helps. On the other hand, the UK has done atrociously. I think the core difference here is taking things seriously. Neither the UK nor the US has actually taken this seriously. Here in greater London, masks are still not really compulsory in shops or on transport. Meetings of large numbers of people continue etc. The reason I like Aus as an example is that they are so similar to us (apologies if I'm incorrect assuming you're a brit, American or other anglo national): they're a democratic, Liberal, aging, right wing governed, capitalist, using English common law, mostly white, trading, federal, developed urbanised, nation. What did they do that we didn't? They took more action quicker. They actually enforced lockdown. They aimed to minimise covid numbers instead of maximising them.

AndrewBissell 6y ago
> On the other hand, the UK has done atrociously. I think the core difference here is taking things seriously. Neither the UK nor the US has actually taken this seriously. Is it your belief that Japan (which experienced some significant community spread this winter) is "not taking this seriously"? Do you think that's true of every European country that has had large outbreaks? What do you make of there being relatively little relationship among the different U.S. states between severity of lockdown policies and cases/deaths? This is ultimately a kind of non-falsifiable hypothesis. If significant endemic spread occurs, it is simply because they "didn't take it seriously" (and there are always at least a few malingering rule breakers who can be blamed no matter where you're looking). The only data points which are examined are places where there was either strict lockdown and no spread, or "something less than" strict lockdown and some significant spread, even though globally there is a broad mix of outcomes which calls the whole relationship of lockdown severity to Covid case counts into question. I agree that earlier action might have spared us a lot of grief (although I'm not sure how long the necessary border and travel restrictions realistically could have been maintained, or whether contact tracing would have had wide buy-in), but in the timeframe it could have been done (i.e. before there was significant community spread in the U.S.) most of the people we are now admonished to defer to as "experts" were saying to be worried about the flu, bungling the testing situation, etc.