7 ms·

There are pros and cons of living anywhere. Visit Singapore and you'll encounter some of the cleanest streets on the planet. I don't mind the "severe" punishme

There are pros and cons of living anywhere. Visit Singapore and you'll encounter some of the cleanest streets on the planet. I don't mind the "severe" punishments that come down on those that do things like litter, because I don't litter — all in all it doesn't change my behavior for the worse, and only improves the quality of life. And jaywalking is illegal in the US too. I'd love to answer any questions about Singapore, if you want to ask them privately (I lived there for several years): sahil@slavingia.com

shmulkey18 15y ago
Clean streets vs. freedom of speech. Sounds like a no-brainer to me.
- vegai 15y ago
  How is anyone's freedom of speech violated if they're not allowed to litter?
  - true_religion 15y ago
    You can't possess or view pornography---that's a violation of free speech. There's more. But the only positive that's trumpeted about singapore is that their streets are clean and their city beautiful. This is good for the tourist, but not necessarily a place you want to move to.
    - eps 15y ago
      National Geographic ran a special on Singapore a year or so ago and one thing they described was a proliferation of thinly disguised "massage parlors" in malls. In a police state that Singapore is it basically means that these outlets are approved by the government, so the whole pornography issue is really quite multifaceted. The same special described the general idea behind the chewing gum and jaywalking laws -- it is to whip citizens into the proper shape and to force them to behave decently. An extreme variation of the broken window theory if you will. And to top it off, there might be a government, but there is the father of the nation who, the man who developed the very idea of Singapore. He is in his 70s (?) and it is not clear how things will develop with his passing. Any Singaporeans here care to comment on NG's take on Singapore? Curious to know how off it is.
      - quadhome 15y ago
        Are you equating semi-legal prostitution with the possession of pornography?
    - mgiampapa 15y ago
      I was just in Singapore for 2 weeks. The streets aren't all that clean. Cleaner than San Francisco or NYC yes... but there is litter in the mornings and evenings and this was even in the highly tourist areas downtown by the Marina Bay. (Awesome hotel pool at least, but that's not how I would pick a place to live)
    - middus 15y ago
      How is pornography related to free speech?
      - fiblye 15y ago
        It's an artistic medium. While not speech, it's a means of expression. If a person wants to distribute recordings of consenting adults having sex to those that want to see it, I see no point in criminalizing them for doing so. It's infringing on a basic human right and I don't understand how anyone could possibly be in support of such a frivolous law.
        Jach 15y ago
        > I don't understand how anyone could possibly be in support of such a frivolous law. Because porn is Bad and the law exists to stop Bad things from happening.
    - vegai 15y ago
      "You can't possess or view pornography---that's a violation of free speech." I'm not sure I can digest that outright. Can you elaborate?
      - kristofferR 15y ago
        The law is not just about porn, but also other "obscene material" like pro-LGBT material, material critical of the regime (Wired is banned because of this), illegal Bibles etc.
        andycroll 15y ago
        Wired is not banned you can get the UK & US editions in most bookshops. It's just expensive! Various publications that have been critical of the political environment have been dragged into court to deal with Singapore's not-so-friendly libel laws. The LGBT situation is culturally more acceptable than it was, but there is still a lot of work to be done. NB: I am a liberal Brit who lives and works in Singapore (nearly 5 years now)
        kristofferR 15y ago
        Ah, sorry. I misintrepreted the information on Wikipedia about the issue http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disneyland_with_the_Death_Penalty http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disneyland_with_the_Death_Penal...
d99kris 15y ago
I second that. It's a very safe city and I don't mind that minor crimes are taken seriously here [1]. [1] http://nope.se/temp/bike_theft_singapore.jpg http://nope.se/temp/bike_theft_singapore.jpg
- CamperBob 15y ago
  I love the icon at lower right in that sign. Is the cop joining hands with his fellow citizens, or dragging them away?
  - kiiski 15y ago
    Red == bad thing == criminals?
    - deleted 15y ago
      [deleted]
fiblye 15y ago
>And jaywalking is illegal in the US too. Depends on where you are. Most cities and college towns in the US don't care where you cross the road so long as you're not doing it recklessly, and places where laws are enforced generally have nothing more than extremely small fines. I'd rather not live in a society that restricts human liberties to the point of making citizens robotic. Yeah, the US has its share of problems, but chewing gum and porn aren't among them.
- zizee 15y ago
  My friends Dad, travelling in the US, had the police order him off the street at gun point because he was jaywalking. I'm sure that is not the typical experience of most people, but I thought it an interesting anecdote after seeing the parents post...
  - mestudent 15y ago
    It depends where you are, I know I have jaywalked next to cops without so much as a word from them, but this was on the street next to a college campus.
  - miked 15y ago
    >> had the police order him off the street at gun point because he was jaywalking. I simply don't believe your friend's dad was telling the truth. There are plenty of bad cops in the US, but drawing a gun on someone because they were jaywalking? I call bullshit.
    - cubix 15y ago
      Doesn't sound so outlandish to me: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BHjjF55M8JQ http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BHjjF55M8JQ
      - georgieporgie 15y ago
        Oh, come on. Jaywalking is nothing at all like doing a wheelie down the freeway at 90+ miles per hour and -- knowingly or unknowingly -- evading the police.
bluedanieru 15y ago
"I don't mind if X is illegal because I don't X." "I don't mind if the state thinks I did X because I don't X." There is a crucial difference between these two things and it's why any sane nation avoids applying draconian punishments for mundane offenses. Basically, the state realizes it could be wrong and hedges its bets. The Singapore state doesn't consider that, and it should give anyone living there or planning to go pause. Even if you don't care for the guilty, remember that no judicial system will always convict only the guilty.

shmulkey18 15y ago

Clean streets vs. freedom of speech. Sounds like a no-brainer to me.

vegai 15y ago
How is anyone's freedom of speech violated if they're not allowed to litter?
- true_religion 15y ago
  You can't possess or view pornography---that's a violation of free speech. There's more. But the only positive that's trumpeted about singapore is that their streets are clean and their city beautiful. This is good for the tourist, but not necessarily a place you want to move to.
  - eps 15y ago
    National Geographic ran a special on Singapore a year or so ago and one thing they described was a proliferation of thinly disguised "massage parlors" in malls. In a police state that Singapore is it basically means that these outlets are approved by the government, so the whole pornography issue is really quite multifaceted. The same special described the general idea behind the chewing gum and jaywalking laws -- it is to whip citizens into the proper shape and to force them to behave decently. An extreme variation of the broken window theory if you will. And to top it off, there might be a government, but there is the father of the nation who, the man who developed the very idea of Singapore. He is in his 70s (?) and it is not clear how things will develop with his passing. Any Singaporeans here care to comment on NG's take on Singapore? Curious to know how off it is.
    - quadhome 15y ago
      Are you equating semi-legal prostitution with the possession of pornography?
  - mgiampapa 15y ago
    I was just in Singapore for 2 weeks. The streets aren't all that clean. Cleaner than San Francisco or NYC yes... but there is litter in the mornings and evenings and this was even in the highly tourist areas downtown by the Marina Bay. (Awesome hotel pool at least, but that's not how I would pick a place to live)
  - middus 15y ago
    How is pornography related to free speech?
    - fiblye 15y ago
      It's an artistic medium. While not speech, it's a means of expression. If a person wants to distribute recordings of consenting adults having sex to those that want to see it, I see no point in criminalizing them for doing so. It's infringing on a basic human right and I don't understand how anyone could possibly be in support of such a frivolous law.
      - Jach 15y ago
        > I don't understand how anyone could possibly be in support of such a frivolous law. Because porn is Bad and the law exists to stop Bad things from happening.
  - vegai 15y ago
    "You can't possess or view pornography---that's a violation of free speech." I'm not sure I can digest that outright. Can you elaborate?
    - kristofferR 15y ago
      The law is not just about porn, but also other "obscene material" like pro-LGBT material, material critical of the regime (Wired is banned because of this), illegal Bibles etc.
      - andycroll 15y ago
        Wired is not banned you can get the UK & US editions in most bookshops. It's just expensive! Various publications that have been critical of the political environment have been dragged into court to deal with Singapore's not-so-friendly libel laws. The LGBT situation is culturally more acceptable than it was, but there is still a lot of work to be done. NB: I am a liberal Brit who lives and works in Singapore (nearly 5 years now)
        kristofferR 15y ago
        Ah, sorry. I misintrepreted the information on Wikipedia about the issue http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disneyland_with_the_Death_Penalty http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disneyland_with_the_Death_Penal...

d99kris 15y ago

I second that. It's a very safe city and I don't mind that minor crimes are taken seriously here [1]. [1] http://nope.se/temp/bike_theft_singapore.jpg http://nope.se/temp/bike_theft_singapore.jpg

CamperBob 15y ago
I love the icon at lower right in that sign. Is the cop joining hands with his fellow citizens, or dragging them away?
- kiiski 15y ago
  Red == bad thing == criminals?
  - deleted 15y ago
    [deleted]

fiblye 15y ago

>And jaywalking is illegal in the US too. Depends on where you are. Most cities and college towns in the US don't care where you cross the road so long as you're not doing it recklessly, and places where laws are enforced generally have nothing more than extremely small fines. I'd rather not live in a society that restricts human liberties to the point of making citizens robotic. Yeah, the US has its share of problems, but chewing gum and porn aren't among them.

zizee 15y ago
My friends Dad, travelling in the US, had the police order him off the street at gun point because he was jaywalking. I'm sure that is not the typical experience of most people, but I thought it an interesting anecdote after seeing the parents post...
- mestudent 15y ago
  It depends where you are, I know I have jaywalked next to cops without so much as a word from them, but this was on the street next to a college campus.
- miked 15y ago
  >> had the police order him off the street at gun point because he was jaywalking. I simply don't believe your friend's dad was telling the truth. There are plenty of bad cops in the US, but drawing a gun on someone because they were jaywalking? I call bullshit.
  - cubix 15y ago
    Doesn't sound so outlandish to me: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BHjjF55M8JQ http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BHjjF55M8JQ
    - georgieporgie 15y ago
      Oh, come on. Jaywalking is nothing at all like doing a wheelie down the freeway at 90+ miles per hour and -- knowingly or unknowingly -- evading the police.

bluedanieru 15y ago

"I don't mind if X is illegal because I don't X." "I don't mind if the state thinks I did X because I don't X." There is a crucial difference between these two things and it's why any sane nation avoids applying draconian punishments for mundane offenses. Basically, the state realizes it could be wrong and hedges its bets. The Singapore state doesn't consider that, and it should give anyone living there or planning to go pause. Even if you don't care for the guilty, remember that no judicial system will always convict only the guilty.