13 ms·

I'm surprised at his choice of location - Singapore is quite a nanny state, and the punishments are sometimes quite severe. "Singapore society is highly regula

by kylec 15y ago

I'm surprised at his choice of location - Singapore is quite a nanny state, and the punishments are sometimes quite severe. "Singapore society is highly regulated through the criminalization of many activities which are considered as fairly harmless in other countries. These include failing to flush toilets after use, littering, jaywalking, the possession of pornography, and the sale of chewing gum." "Singapore has one of the highest execution rates in the world relative to its population, surpassing Saudi Arabia." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Criminal_law_of_Singapore http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Criminal_law_of_Singapore http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disneyland_with_the_death_penalty http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disneyland_with_the_death_penal... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Offence_of_scandalizing_the_court_in_Singapore http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Offence_of_scandalizing_the_cou... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Criminal_Law_(Temporary_Provisions)_Act_(Singapore) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Criminal_Law_(Temporary_Provisi...

sahillavingia 15y ago
There are pros and cons of living anywhere. Visit Singapore and you'll encounter some of the cleanest streets on the planet. I don't mind the "severe" punishments that come down on those that do things like litter, because I don't litter — all in all it doesn't change my behavior for the worse, and only improves the quality of life. And jaywalking is illegal in the US too. I'd love to answer any questions about Singapore, if you want to ask them privately (I lived there for several years): sahil@slavingia.com
- shmulkey18 15y ago
  Clean streets vs. freedom of speech. Sounds like a no-brainer to me.
  - vegai 15y ago
    How is anyone's freedom of speech violated if they're not allowed to litter?
    - true_religion 15y ago
      You can't possess or view pornography---that's a violation of free speech. There's more. But the only positive that's trumpeted about singapore is that their streets are clean and their city beautiful. This is good for the tourist, but not necessarily a place you want to move to.
      - eps 15y ago
        National Geographic ran a special on Singapore a year or so ago and one thing they described was a proliferation of thinly disguised "massage parlors" in malls. In a police state that Singapore is it basically means that these outlets are approved by the government, so the whole pornography issue is really quite multifaceted. The same special described the general idea behind the chewing gum and jaywalking laws -- it is to whip citizens into the proper shape and to force them to behave decently. An extreme variation of the broken window theory if you will. And to top it off, there might be a government, but there is the father of the nation who, the man who developed the very idea of Singapore. He is in his 70s (?) and it is not clear how things will develop with his passing. Any Singaporeans here care to comment on NG's take on Singapore? Curious to know how off it is.
        quadhome 15y ago
        Are you equating semi-legal prostitution with the possession of pornography?
      - mgiampapa 15y ago
        I was just in Singapore for 2 weeks. The streets aren't all that clean. Cleaner than San Francisco or NYC yes... but there is litter in the mornings and evenings and this was even in the highly tourist areas downtown by the Marina Bay. (Awesome hotel pool at least, but that's not how I would pick a place to live)
      - middus 15y ago
        How is pornography related to free speech?
- d99kris 15y ago
  I second that. It's a very safe city and I don't mind that minor crimes are taken seriously here [1]. [1] http://nope.se/temp/bike_theft_singapore.jpg http://nope.se/temp/bike_theft_singapore.jpg
  - CamperBob 15y ago
    I love the icon at lower right in that sign. Is the cop joining hands with his fellow citizens, or dragging them away?
    - kiiski 15y ago
      Red == bad thing == criminals?
      - deleted 15y ago
        [deleted]
- fiblye 15y ago
  >And jaywalking is illegal in the US too. Depends on where you are. Most cities and college towns in the US don't care where you cross the road so long as you're not doing it recklessly, and places where laws are enforced generally have nothing more than extremely small fines. I'd rather not live in a society that restricts human liberties to the point of making citizens robotic. Yeah, the US has its share of problems, but chewing gum and porn aren't among them.
  - zizee 15y ago
    My friends Dad, travelling in the US, had the police order him off the street at gun point because he was jaywalking. I'm sure that is not the typical experience of most people, but I thought it an interesting anecdote after seeing the parents post...
    - mestudent 15y ago
      It depends where you are, I know I have jaywalked next to cops without so much as a word from them, but this was on the street next to a college campus.
    - miked 15y ago
      >> had the police order him off the street at gun point because he was jaywalking. I simply don't believe your friend's dad was telling the truth. There are plenty of bad cops in the US, but drawing a gun on someone because they were jaywalking? I call bullshit.
      - cubix 15y ago
        Doesn't sound so outlandish to me: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BHjjF55M8JQ http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BHjjF55M8JQ
        georgieporgie 15y ago
        Oh, come on. Jaywalking is nothing at all like doing a wheelie down the freeway at 90+ miles per hour and -- knowingly or unknowingly -- evading the police.
- bluedanieru 15y ago
  "I don't mind if X is illegal because I don't X." "I don't mind if the state thinks I did X because I don't X." There is a crucial difference between these two things and it's why any sane nation avoids applying draconian punishments for mundane offenses. Basically, the state realizes it could be wrong and hedges its bets. The Singapore state doesn't consider that, and it should give anyone living there or planning to go pause. Even if you don't care for the guilty, remember that no judicial system will always convict only the guilty.
mingyeow 15y ago
i live in both sf and singapore (50/50), and i am actually very much in support of these rules. my only grouse is the suppressed political scene, and i am glad that even that is being lifted in a slow but steady manner. and trust me, 90% of my friends have criticized the government in a very public manner on facebook/twitter. last i checked, they are still running around town and still complaining. do not believe 90% of what you hear about singapore - it is actually a very open and welcoming place, quirky punishments not withstanding.
- rickmb 15y ago
  I've never heard executing people referred to as "quirky".
  - wyclif 15y ago
    Lots of countries execute people. The US, for example. So I think it's unfair to single out Singapore in that regard, even if you're against capital punishment.
  - 16s 15y ago
    Or beating people with canes until the meat is hanging off the butt and legs. Cruel, but not quirky.
alnayyir 15y ago
Westerners who've never lived there and wouldn't be in any danger of suffering any of this "harsh" treatment love to complain about Singapore. Visit sometime with an open mind.
- kristofferR 15y ago
  It's hard to visit with an open mind when you would risk several years in prison for doing what you would at home. Capital punishment is required for being in the company with someone possessing a small amount of weed. "Obscene material" gives you prison up to three months, 21 years if you make it avaliable to someone under 21. If you watch the movie Milk with someone under 21 years old, you risk 21 years in prison. All members of Jehovas Witnesses were imprisioned in 2004. Richard Dawkins would probably have been sentenced for long imprisonment without a trial.
  - helmut_hed 15y ago
    Richard Dawkins would probably have been sentenced for long imprisonment without a trial Can you elaborate?
    - kristofferR 15y ago
      The two most relevant acts are The Maintenance of Religious Harmony Act and The Sedition Act. Both allow for prison sentences for saying things that could be percieved as offensive. In 2006 a young blogger were detained for posting cartoons of Jesus.
  - brisance 15y ago
    >>Capital punishment is required for being in the company with someone possessing a small amount of weed. Capital punishment is meted out to persons who possess or have reasonable knowledge of someone who possesses or deals in drugs. Do I agree with it? No. But it's very far from your claim. There is due process of law. >>All members of Jehovas Witnesses were imprisioned in 2004. The reason for this is because Singapore has a conscripted army. All male citizens are required to spend 2+ years of their lives in service of their country. They are liable to be called up for service any time up till they are 40, or 50 in the case of officers. Jehovah's Witnesses renounce bearing arms and thus their religion is in direct conflict with statute. They are not "imprisoned" in the sense of "rehabilitation" or "punishment". They are confined, so yes there are restrictions on their movement, and are given duties such as gardening, cooking etc. They are free men after they have performed the equivalent length of time as a regular citizen in the armed forces. Edit: typos
phlux 15y ago
I used to manage a team in Singapore when with Lockheed and would go there regularly. It is one of my favorite cities on the planet. I took a sabbatical in 2000/2001 for six months and backpacked through asia - I spent 2 months in singapore then as well. The laws and strictness of the place is greatly exaggerated from my perspective -- if your not doing crazy stuff, you have nothing to worry about. The city is AMAZING -- and is the FUTURE of cities; they have taken massive infrastructure projects to prepare for more than doubling their population by 2020 - and they build massive underground connective malls and walking causeways. The city has an incredibly high density of plant life (trees and greenery) and it makes an impact when you visit. Many of the buildings have a large setback from roads where they have trees and grass and planters between the buildings and roads. This is really a wonderful civil engineering trait of the place and makes the city much more beautiful than dense urban dirty environments we see in american cities. In my opinion, if you ever watch much anime -- Singapore is the city that will most closely resemble that which you see in anime. I love Singapore - the only thing I dont like is how freaking hot/humid it can get.... and the cost of living.
- keyle 15y ago
  I've visited Singapore twice. I've settled in Australia, originally from Europe. I was really worried when I visited Singapore and took their 'tourist' tour. They put you in a bus, drive you around all jetlagged and give you orange juice on the beach. Completely surreal. What really put me off was their unconditional love for their government. The woman 'tour guide' in the bus just couldn't stop thanking the government for giving them so much. It was unhealthy. Yet they don't own anything and they live in towers. Sure it was really pretty but it freaked me out a little. I felt a deep communism in this pro-capitalist ex-colony. I'm no die hard capitalist but I prefer the australian way of owning my own life and freely talking crap of the government.
  - shii 15y ago
    s/communism/totalitarianism/g and you'll make better sense.
    - deleted 15y ago
gcb 15y ago
laws are only for the undesired. here in california I'm a criminal for having a gps on my wind shield. but as long as I'm not a minority/pissing an officer/disturbing the status quo/etc, I'm fine. "to my friends everything.to my enemies, the law."
- chrisbolt 15y ago
  It is legal to have a GPS on your windshield in California. http://dmv.ca.gov/pubs/vctop/d12/vc26708.htm http://dmv.ca.gov/pubs/vctop/d12/vc26708.htm section 12
  - gcb 15y ago
    ...on the most inconvinient spots. also, what if it have back up camera or radar detection? both features pretty common but outlawed.
- mikemaccana 15y ago
  Wouldn't most people have a GPS on their dashboard?
  - gcb 15y ago
    The same with people with expensive cars not having front plates. When was the last time you saw a new Corvette with the front plates in california? as I said, you only have to worry with petty laws if you are not rich.
Lucadg 15y ago
A few years back I was at Singapore's airport and I saw, along many other signs forbidding most human activities one which still haunts me at night. There was this symbol of a person reading and the text was: no studying. Then one day while I was walking down Orchard road I saw a long line of people quieing on the street to get in...Sweansens (a chain crappy ice-cream store). That's when I decided Singapore was lost. What scares me the is most is that all the rest of South East Asia aspires to become a big Singapore. Human beings are not supposed to live like that.
- dualogy 15y ago
  Sounds like the good thing about Singapore seems to be that is successfully drives out people who go to pieces over others queueing for ice-cream... they must be doing something right there B-)
  - Lucadg 15y ago
    yep, their filter works :) but my point was not "queueing for ice-cream" rather "queueing for shitty industrial ice-cream". I would queue hours for good ice cream. I mean, they were driven there by some sick marketing effort, brain washed into thinking that there was something there worth the wait. Imagine people queuing to get in McDondalds in your city. Dou feel it now? That's what I felt. Scary....
    - mdolon 15y ago
      There's always a line when I go to McDonald's, especially in the city. Usually not out to the street but at least 10-15 people long. Think about Best Buy or Walmart on Black Friday - people are on the streets camping for days. Same with an Apple product launch, people get there many hours ahead (even though they usually have enough for everyone). There's sick marketing and commercial brain-washing, if you call it that, going on all over the world.
      - Lucadg 15y ago
        ok, my fault. I said "a line" and failed to mention "a line of at least 100 people". It's fine to queue for good deals, or products you are passionate about but these guys were going to wait at least one hour to get some low quality ice cream on the most exclusive road in Singapore. I thought (of course I may be wrong) that they were not there for the ice-cream, the price or the atmosphere, but because they wanted a piece Orchard road "experience". And they were ready to wait a long time for it. The thing is the Orchard road experience is not experience at all. It's just shopping malls. I don't know Singapore well (I do know Asia quite well) but the impression I get each time I go there is that life is only about working and shopping. It's a clean and fine city and it's a model for the rest of Asia, but each time I am happy to go back to the rest of Asia with its for sure dirty and messy but at least it has some depth.

by kylec 15y ago

sahillavingia 15y ago

There are pros and cons of living anywhere. Visit Singapore and you'll encounter some of the cleanest streets on the planet. I don't mind the "severe" punishments that come down on those that do things like litter, because I don't litter — all in all it doesn't change my behavior for the worse, and only improves the quality of life. And jaywalking is illegal in the US too. I'd love to answer any questions about Singapore, if you want to ask them privately (I lived there for several years): sahil@slavingia.com

shmulkey18 15y ago
Clean streets vs. freedom of speech. Sounds like a no-brainer to me.
- vegai 15y ago
  How is anyone's freedom of speech violated if they're not allowed to litter?
  - true_religion 15y ago
    You can't possess or view pornography---that's a violation of free speech. There's more. But the only positive that's trumpeted about singapore is that their streets are clean and their city beautiful. This is good for the tourist, but not necessarily a place you want to move to.
    - eps 15y ago
      National Geographic ran a special on Singapore a year or so ago and one thing they described was a proliferation of thinly disguised "massage parlors" in malls. In a police state that Singapore is it basically means that these outlets are approved by the government, so the whole pornography issue is really quite multifaceted. The same special described the general idea behind the chewing gum and jaywalking laws -- it is to whip citizens into the proper shape and to force them to behave decently. An extreme variation of the broken window theory if you will. And to top it off, there might be a government, but there is the father of the nation who, the man who developed the very idea of Singapore. He is in his 70s (?) and it is not clear how things will develop with his passing. Any Singaporeans here care to comment on NG's take on Singapore? Curious to know how off it is.
      - quadhome 15y ago
        Are you equating semi-legal prostitution with the possession of pornography?
    - mgiampapa 15y ago
      I was just in Singapore for 2 weeks. The streets aren't all that clean. Cleaner than San Francisco or NYC yes... but there is litter in the mornings and evenings and this was even in the highly tourist areas downtown by the Marina Bay. (Awesome hotel pool at least, but that's not how I would pick a place to live)
    - middus 15y ago
      How is pornography related to free speech?
d99kris 15y ago
I second that. It's a very safe city and I don't mind that minor crimes are taken seriously here [1]. [1] http://nope.se/temp/bike_theft_singapore.jpg http://nope.se/temp/bike_theft_singapore.jpg
- CamperBob 15y ago
  I love the icon at lower right in that sign. Is the cop joining hands with his fellow citizens, or dragging them away?
  - kiiski 15y ago
    Red == bad thing == criminals?
    - deleted 15y ago
      [deleted]
fiblye 15y ago
>And jaywalking is illegal in the US too. Depends on where you are. Most cities and college towns in the US don't care where you cross the road so long as you're not doing it recklessly, and places where laws are enforced generally have nothing more than extremely small fines. I'd rather not live in a society that restricts human liberties to the point of making citizens robotic. Yeah, the US has its share of problems, but chewing gum and porn aren't among them.
- zizee 15y ago
  My friends Dad, travelling in the US, had the police order him off the street at gun point because he was jaywalking. I'm sure that is not the typical experience of most people, but I thought it an interesting anecdote after seeing the parents post...
  - mestudent 15y ago
    It depends where you are, I know I have jaywalked next to cops without so much as a word from them, but this was on the street next to a college campus.
  - miked 15y ago
    >> had the police order him off the street at gun point because he was jaywalking. I simply don't believe your friend's dad was telling the truth. There are plenty of bad cops in the US, but drawing a gun on someone because they were jaywalking? I call bullshit.
    - cubix 15y ago
      Doesn't sound so outlandish to me: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BHjjF55M8JQ http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BHjjF55M8JQ
      - georgieporgie 15y ago
        Oh, come on. Jaywalking is nothing at all like doing a wheelie down the freeway at 90+ miles per hour and -- knowingly or unknowingly -- evading the police.
bluedanieru 15y ago
"I don't mind if X is illegal because I don't X." "I don't mind if the state thinks I did X because I don't X." There is a crucial difference between these two things and it's why any sane nation avoids applying draconian punishments for mundane offenses. Basically, the state realizes it could be wrong and hedges its bets. The Singapore state doesn't consider that, and it should give anyone living there or planning to go pause. Even if you don't care for the guilty, remember that no judicial system will always convict only the guilty.

mingyeow 15y ago

i live in both sf and singapore (50/50), and i am actually very much in support of these rules. my only grouse is the suppressed political scene, and i am glad that even that is being lifted in a slow but steady manner. and trust me, 90% of my friends have criticized the government in a very public manner on facebook/twitter. last i checked, they are still running around town and still complaining. do not believe 90% of what you hear about singapore - it is actually a very open and welcoming place, quirky punishments not withstanding.

rickmb 15y ago
I've never heard executing people referred to as "quirky".
- wyclif 15y ago
  Lots of countries execute people. The US, for example. So I think it's unfair to single out Singapore in that regard, even if you're against capital punishment.
- 16s 15y ago
  Or beating people with canes until the meat is hanging off the butt and legs. Cruel, but not quirky.

alnayyir 15y ago

Westerners who've never lived there and wouldn't be in any danger of suffering any of this "harsh" treatment love to complain about Singapore. Visit sometime with an open mind.

kristofferR 15y ago
It's hard to visit with an open mind when you would risk several years in prison for doing what you would at home. Capital punishment is required for being in the company with someone possessing a small amount of weed. "Obscene material" gives you prison up to three months, 21 years if you make it avaliable to someone under 21. If you watch the movie Milk with someone under 21 years old, you risk 21 years in prison. All members of Jehovas Witnesses were imprisioned in 2004. Richard Dawkins would probably have been sentenced for long imprisonment without a trial.
- helmut_hed 15y ago
  Richard Dawkins would probably have been sentenced for long imprisonment without a trial Can you elaborate?
  - kristofferR 15y ago
    The two most relevant acts are The Maintenance of Religious Harmony Act and The Sedition Act. Both allow for prison sentences for saying things that could be percieved as offensive. In 2006 a young blogger were detained for posting cartoons of Jesus.
- brisance 15y ago
  >>Capital punishment is required for being in the company with someone possessing a small amount of weed. Capital punishment is meted out to persons who possess or have reasonable knowledge of someone who possesses or deals in drugs. Do I agree with it? No. But it's very far from your claim. There is due process of law. >>All members of Jehovas Witnesses were imprisioned in 2004. The reason for this is because Singapore has a conscripted army. All male citizens are required to spend 2+ years of their lives in service of their country. They are liable to be called up for service any time up till they are 40, or 50 in the case of officers. Jehovah's Witnesses renounce bearing arms and thus their religion is in direct conflict with statute. They are not "imprisoned" in the sense of "rehabilitation" or "punishment". They are confined, so yes there are restrictions on their movement, and are given duties such as gardening, cooking etc. They are free men after they have performed the equivalent length of time as a regular citizen in the armed forces. Edit: typos

phlux 15y ago

I used to manage a team in Singapore when with Lockheed and would go there regularly. It is one of my favorite cities on the planet. I took a sabbatical in 2000/2001 for six months and backpacked through asia - I spent 2 months in singapore then as well. The laws and strictness of the place is greatly exaggerated from my perspective -- if your not doing crazy stuff, you have nothing to worry about. The city is AMAZING -- and is the FUTURE of cities; they have taken massive infrastructure projects to prepare for more than doubling their population by 2020 - and they build massive underground connective malls and walking causeways. The city has an incredibly high density of plant life (trees and greenery) and it makes an impact when you visit. Many of the buildings have a large setback from roads where they have trees and grass and planters between the buildings and roads. This is really a wonderful civil engineering trait of the place and makes the city much more beautiful than dense urban dirty environments we see in american cities. In my opinion, if you ever watch much anime -- Singapore is the city that will most closely resemble that which you see in anime. I love Singapore - the only thing I dont like is how freaking hot/humid it can get.... and the cost of living.

keyle 15y ago
I've visited Singapore twice. I've settled in Australia, originally from Europe. I was really worried when I visited Singapore and took their 'tourist' tour. They put you in a bus, drive you around all jetlagged and give you orange juice on the beach. Completely surreal. What really put me off was their unconditional love for their government. The woman 'tour guide' in the bus just couldn't stop thanking the government for giving them so much. It was unhealthy. Yet they don't own anything and they live in towers. Sure it was really pretty but it freaked me out a little. I felt a deep communism in this pro-capitalist ex-colony. I'm no die hard capitalist but I prefer the australian way of owning my own life and freely talking crap of the government.
- shii 15y ago
  s/communism/totalitarianism/g and you'll make better sense.
  - deleted 15y ago

gcb 15y ago

laws are only for the undesired. here in california I'm a criminal for having a gps on my wind shield. but as long as I'm not a minority/pissing an officer/disturbing the status quo/etc, I'm fine. "to my friends everything.to my enemies, the law."

chrisbolt 15y ago
It is legal to have a GPS on your windshield in California. http://dmv.ca.gov/pubs/vctop/d12/vc26708.htm http://dmv.ca.gov/pubs/vctop/d12/vc26708.htm section 12
- gcb 15y ago
  ...on the most inconvinient spots. also, what if it have back up camera or radar detection? both features pretty common but outlawed.
mikemaccana 15y ago
Wouldn't most people have a GPS on their dashboard?
- gcb 15y ago
  The same with people with expensive cars not having front plates. When was the last time you saw a new Corvette with the front plates in california? as I said, you only have to worry with petty laws if you are not rich.

Lucadg 15y ago

A few years back I was at Singapore's airport and I saw, along many other signs forbidding most human activities one which still haunts me at night. There was this symbol of a person reading and the text was: no studying. Then one day while I was walking down Orchard road I saw a long line of people quieing on the street to get in...Sweansens (a chain crappy ice-cream store). That's when I decided Singapore was lost. What scares me the is most is that all the rest of South East Asia aspires to become a big Singapore. Human beings are not supposed to live like that.

dualogy 15y ago
Sounds like the good thing about Singapore seems to be that is successfully drives out people who go to pieces over others queueing for ice-cream... they must be doing something right there B-)
- Lucadg 15y ago
  yep, their filter works :) but my point was not "queueing for ice-cream" rather "queueing for shitty industrial ice-cream". I would queue hours for good ice cream. I mean, they were driven there by some sick marketing effort, brain washed into thinking that there was something there worth the wait. Imagine people queuing to get in McDondalds in your city. Dou feel it now? That's what I felt. Scary....
  - mdolon 15y ago
    There's always a line when I go to McDonald's, especially in the city. Usually not out to the street but at least 10-15 people long. Think about Best Buy or Walmart on Black Friday - people are on the streets camping for days. Same with an Apple product launch, people get there many hours ahead (even though they usually have enough for everyone). There's sick marketing and commercial brain-washing, if you call it that, going on all over the world.
    - Lucadg 15y ago
      ok, my fault. I said "a line" and failed to mention "a line of at least 100 people". It's fine to queue for good deals, or products you are passionate about but these guys were going to wait at least one hour to get some low quality ice cream on the most exclusive road in Singapore. I thought (of course I may be wrong) that they were not there for the ice-cream, the price or the atmosphere, but because they wanted a piece Orchard road "experience". And they were ready to wait a long time for it. The thing is the Orchard road experience is not experience at all. It's just shopping malls. I don't know Singapore well (I do know Asia quite well) but the impression I get each time I go there is that life is only about working and shopping. It's a clean and fine city and it's a model for the rest of Asia, but each time I am happy to go back to the rest of Asia with its for sure dirty and messy but at least it has some depth.