4 ms·

Employees need to be kept happy, otherwise they leave and the company has to spend more money hiring and training a replacement. The alternative to this is off

by ratww 6y ago

Employees need to be kept happy, otherwise they leave and the company has to spend more money hiring and training a replacement. The alternative to this is offering more money, which isn’t even guaranteed to work.

throw14082020 6y ago
I disagree that employees need to be kept happy. The confident/ well informed ones do if you want them to stay, because they will go spend the extra time to leave and find another job. But I've been in jobs where developers are clearly not happy, but they put up with it. So the point is, you will brain drain your company if you don't make developers happy. I was initially gonna say "Good" in place of "confident/ well informed", but I'm sure some developers who are good simply don't know there are better places out for them.
- username90 6y ago
  Sounds like you'd easily get the dead sea effect if you manage teams like that.
  - throw14082020 6y ago
    Yes thats what I was trying to explain. I didn't know the name was dead sea effect. I don't recommend doing this, I just mean employees don't "need" to be kept happy, many companies exist like this, and some do quite well financially. I guess the dead sea effect doesn't always happen.
- marcinzm 6y ago
  Eventually the confident/well informed ones will start sniping the goods ones for the new companies they're at.
- bluefirebrand 6y ago
  > I disagree that employees need to be kept happy Are you my old manager?
amw-zero 6y ago
I’m not saying you should abuse employees. It’s pretty weird how much we think engineers need to be coddled and kept engaged though. First of all, if you have to consciously think about this, your company probably isn’t engaging to begin with. Second, you need to work to eat. I think people forget that sometimes.
- oblio 6y ago
  Right now qualified developers are a sort of privileged working class. I imagine, like car engineers in the 1940s or so. They need to be pampered because they have high mobility.
  - amw-zero 6y ago
    I resent that. The difference between pure privilege and entitlement is that, when you are entitled, you expect your privilege and don't acknowledge what you should be reciprocating for it. That's what made me react so strongly to this comment. I think we should have more gratitude for our privilege.
    - username90 6y ago
      > I think we should have more gratitude for our privilege. The company hired you because you make them money. As soon as the company feels you are a bad deal they will fire you. Why shouldn't you do the same to them? Feeling gratitude about a shitty job will just make shitty jobs more common, that isn't good for anyone.
    - Cederfjard 6y ago
      Sure, maybe to other people in the world who are not as privileged, but help keep society tick anyway. We can be grateful to them that their toil is allowing us to spend our time doing this. But like the sibling comment said, employment is a business transaction, even if it’s usually heavily lopsided in favor of the employer. Typically it’s an organization owned and run by people who are even more privileged than us, and that don’t have any qualms about applying pressure in the other direction when they can (see the working conditions of most of the aforementioned ”other people in the world”). Of course we should be respectful and strive to do our best and provide value commensurate with our compensation. But if the market is such that people can take a pick and go to companies that let them have more fun while doing so, I think that’s great. It’s a pretty calvinistic mindset to see it otherwise.
AnIdiotOnTheNet 6y ago
And yet the general consensus in "software engineering" seems to be that one should switch jobs for a pay raise every 2 years.
deckard1 6y ago
> The alternative to this is offering more money, which isn’t even guaranteed to work. This is true, but I feel misses the mark a little. The absolute best development job I've had in my 15 odd years of experience was my first job. It wasn't about the technology. What I was using there was completely new to me, down to the text editor and keyboard (vim + Microsoft Natural ergonomic, you should have seen me struggling to do anything learning both at once). It wasn't about the pay. The company was paying an embarrassingly low rate because they were one of two companies in town hiring developers. It wasn't because we had a fancy office or a stocked pantry or beer on tap. We had none of that. No. It was entirely because of the people I worked with. We would all play World of Warcraft after hours. We would joke around at work during the day and eat lunch together. That's it. That's the entire secret to a happy job. And you can't bottle that magic sauce up and sell it at trade shows and conferences. You can't write a book on it. Because it's situational. If you've ever worked at a place like that, then you know what I'm talking about. It has little to do with the company. In fact, the CEO was a bit of a narcissistic slimey toad. Businesses spend a fortune trying to force such an environment through cargo cult. "If we provide X, then developers will show up and work all night." So every company is a "campus" that resembles a college dorm environment. And it all falls flat and infantile. Because we are adults and see it as the pandering it is.

by ratww 6y ago

throw14082020 6y ago

I disagree that employees need to be kept happy. The confident/ well informed ones do if you want them to stay, because they will go spend the extra time to leave and find another job. But I've been in jobs where developers are clearly not happy, but they put up with it. So the point is, you will brain drain your company if you don't make developers happy. I was initially gonna say "Good" in place of "confident/ well informed", but I'm sure some developers who are good simply don't know there are better places out for them.

username90 6y ago
Sounds like you'd easily get the dead sea effect if you manage teams like that.
- throw14082020 6y ago
  Yes thats what I was trying to explain. I didn't know the name was dead sea effect. I don't recommend doing this, I just mean employees don't "need" to be kept happy, many companies exist like this, and some do quite well financially. I guess the dead sea effect doesn't always happen.
marcinzm 6y ago
Eventually the confident/well informed ones will start sniping the goods ones for the new companies they're at.
bluefirebrand 6y ago
> I disagree that employees need to be kept happy Are you my old manager?

amw-zero 6y ago

I’m not saying you should abuse employees. It’s pretty weird how much we think engineers need to be coddled and kept engaged though. First of all, if you have to consciously think about this, your company probably isn’t engaging to begin with. Second, you need to work to eat. I think people forget that sometimes.

oblio 6y ago
Right now qualified developers are a sort of privileged working class. I imagine, like car engineers in the 1940s or so. They need to be pampered because they have high mobility.
- amw-zero 6y ago
  I resent that. The difference between pure privilege and entitlement is that, when you are entitled, you expect your privilege and don't acknowledge what you should be reciprocating for it. That's what made me react so strongly to this comment. I think we should have more gratitude for our privilege.
  - username90 6y ago
    > I think we should have more gratitude for our privilege. The company hired you because you make them money. As soon as the company feels you are a bad deal they will fire you. Why shouldn't you do the same to them? Feeling gratitude about a shitty job will just make shitty jobs more common, that isn't good for anyone.
  - Cederfjard 6y ago
    Sure, maybe to other people in the world who are not as privileged, but help keep society tick anyway. We can be grateful to them that their toil is allowing us to spend our time doing this. But like the sibling comment said, employment is a business transaction, even if it’s usually heavily lopsided in favor of the employer. Typically it’s an organization owned and run by people who are even more privileged than us, and that don’t have any qualms about applying pressure in the other direction when they can (see the working conditions of most of the aforementioned ”other people in the world”). Of course we should be respectful and strive to do our best and provide value commensurate with our compensation. But if the market is such that people can take a pick and go to companies that let them have more fun while doing so, I think that’s great. It’s a pretty calvinistic mindset to see it otherwise.

AnIdiotOnTheNet 6y ago

And yet the general consensus in "software engineering" seems to be that one should switch jobs for a pay raise every 2 years.

deckard1 6y ago

> The alternative to this is offering more money, which isn’t even guaranteed to work. This is true, but I feel misses the mark a little. The absolute best development job I've had in my 15 odd years of experience was my first job. It wasn't about the technology. What I was using there was completely new to me, down to the text editor and keyboard (vim + Microsoft Natural ergonomic, you should have seen me struggling to do anything learning both at once). It wasn't about the pay. The company was paying an embarrassingly low rate because they were one of two companies in town hiring developers. It wasn't because we had a fancy office or a stocked pantry or beer on tap. We had none of that. No. It was entirely because of the people I worked with. We would all play World of Warcraft after hours. We would joke around at work during the day and eat lunch together. That's it. That's the entire secret to a happy job. And you can't bottle that magic sauce up and sell it at trade shows and conferences. You can't write a book on it. Because it's situational. If you've ever worked at a place like that, then you know what I'm talking about. It has little to do with the company. In fact, the CEO was a bit of a narcissistic slimey toad. Businesses spend a fortune trying to force such an environment through cargo cult. "If we provide X, then developers will show up and work all night." So every company is a "campus" that resembles a college dorm environment. And it all falls flat and infantile. Because we are adults and see it as the pandering it is.