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> Does anybody else think that the "mining is bad for the environment and gamers can't buy the cards" argument is a bit weird? After all, if all these cards wer

> Does anybody else think that the "mining is bad for the environment and gamers can't buy the cards" argument is a bit weird? After all, if all these cards weren't used for mining but for gaming, wouldn't the environmental outcome be the same? I never had that specific opinion, but I have another point of view. Games bring inherent value to the table. That is, if you didn't play games you would be reading a book, going outside to play, browsing the web... Games fill a purpose and bring value. Whether or not I believe our current consumption of videogames is acceptable is irrelevant. I don't see tangible value in crypto. Crypto is worth what other people are willing to pay for it. If you wanted to invest in an asset that does not depend on the currency you could buy gold. (I had a paragraph here making a point about international transaction costs. I removed it because I started to find it offtopic. Long story short: I find the societal cost of crypto way too high).

chrisseaton 6y ago
Presumably people enjoy investing in crypto. It’s a hobby for many, like gaming.
- pmiller2 6y ago
  Presumably, gaming doesn't use as much electricity globally as the entire country of Argentina. https://www.bbc.com/news/technology-56012952 https://www.bbc.com/news/technology-56012952
  - Tenoke 6y ago
    Why do you think that? Any stats or are you just guessing? I wouldn't be surprised if it's within an order of magnitude of that.
  - chrisseaton 6y ago
    So how much electricity does gaming use?
- ChuckNorris89 6y ago
  >investing in crypto Crypto is an investment the same way $GME or playing the roulette is an investment. Better term would be speculating or gambling. Nothing wrong with either, but let's call it what it is.
  - qqii 6y ago
    Comparing it to roulette is such a hyperbole. Would you say that penny stocks are playing the roulette? You may argue they have similar odds but there are fundimental differences between them.
    - ChuckNorris89 6y ago
      >Would you say that penny stocks are playing the roulette? Where did I talk about penny stocks? I was talking about volatile meme stocks like $GME being like playing the roulette.
      - qqii 6y ago
        There's still a difference between buying $GME and playing roulette. Volatile as it may be the chance of loosing all of your investment is greatly lower with meme stocks.
  - chrisseaton 6y ago
    Isn’t that what I already said? Investing as a hobby? Recreation? Like investing in Pokemon cards?
    - ChuckNorris89 6y ago
      Investing involves spending money with the intent to make financial returns on your investment. Buying assets "as a hobby" that depreciate or generate no income, is just that, buying for a hobby, not investing.
      - chrisseaton 6y ago
- josalhor 6y ago
  Are you saying there are people out there that are happier investing in "crypto" than in "stock X" or "gold" or "bonds"? It just makes them happier that that particular name appears on the screen? I don't doubt that is the case, but that kind of reinforces my point. The societal cost of crypto is too high. If we have to justify the electrical consumption of crypto because people enjoy it more when they see its name on their screen, we are clearly doing something wrong.
  - chrisseaton 6y ago
    I think they enjoy being part of a community and seeing a number go up and down. Like Fantasy Football. It’s a hobby.
pmiller2 6y ago
> I don't see tangible value in crypto. Crypto is worth what other people are willing to pay for it. If you wanted to invest in an asset that does not depend on the currency you could buy gold. Try convincing any crypto "enthusiast" of that, though. Literally none of them have ever been able to explain to me why cryptocurrencies should have value, but that doesn't stop them from proclaiming it the best thing since sliced bread.
- qqii 6y ago
  It comes down to opinion but I'd argue there is inherent value in a trustless medium of exchange, a trustless explicit protocol for lending, market making (exchange) or gambling or the platform that powers them. I'd also agree that price bubbles happen and future speculation becomes a dominating factor in their price action, but this doesn't mean they don't have inherent value.
  - salawat 6y ago
    It isn't trustless. If it's finance, it's trust based at the very core. Somebody is trusting somebody else to recognize the value up for offer, and being capable of converting it to a utilizable form. This is what crypto-enthusiasts must be blind to. We could be using bottlecaps to do the same bloody thing. Nobody wants to though. Why? Because nobody else takes the value assertion of a bottle cap seriously. As long as people keep buying into the hype, and the enthusiasm is kept up through selective refusal to accept the realities and externalities of the process, then the gravy train continues.
    - qqii 6y ago
      It's not about trusting if the bottle caps are worth anything or are useful, but if the supply and exchange of bottle caps follows the financial rules that are dictated.
- tiborsaas 6y ago
  Finite resources have value.
daniellarusso 6y ago
I was reading your comment and thought ‘The original Crysis release was very bad for the environment.’ Does the efficiency with which a game utilizes system resources alter its value? Sort of the inverse of crypto.
aemreunal 6y ago
> I don't see tangible value in crypto. Crypto is worth what other people are willing to pay for it. That's pretty much true for anything that has financial value, though. Setting aside the chemical properties of gold (conductivity, resistance to corrosion, etc.) that make it more valuable than some other metals, pretty much every financial construct in human culture is only valuable because we decided it was valuable. That's not to say everything is inherently valueless, but crypto is not too dissimilar to, say, digital coins for a game; you just can't usually swap it back in the latter case so it has little/no tangible value. Similarly, the value of stocks, foreign currency, even money itself fluctuates daily. As long as you can swap it back to "real" money, I see it as having tangible value. That being said, I personally choose not to get involved in any cryptocurrency because I would rather invest in more "established" forms of value, like stocks and bonds and whatnot.
- josalhor 6y ago
  > That's pretty much true for anything that has financial value, though. Correct. Maybe a better statement would be "I don't see that the inherent value of crypto is bigger than that of the dollar or gold". This gets even more complicated when you take into account the cost of the transactions that I have discussed with another user.
qqii 6y ago
Although you may disagree with the current value of most cryptocurrencies would you at least agree that their inhenrant value isn't 0? Newer projects like Uniswap, AAVE and MakerDAO (for DAI) are uniquely new and novel concepts that can't be accomplished trustlessly without blockchain technology. Bitcoin has a lot of intangibles (name recognition, trust, hashpower) and for many is a more intersting asset (in what it represents) compared to gold.
- josalhor 6y ago
  > Although you may disagree with the current value of most cryptocurrencies I would like to clarify something. I didn't say I disagreed with the value of cryptocurrencies (that is, its value in dollars). I said I find their societal cost way too high. In other terms, (Inherent Value of crypto < Societal Costs of crypto). > would you at least agree that their inhenrant value isn't 0? I agree with that. Although my previous answer stated "I don't see tangible value in crypto" I suppressed the paragraph that said that crypto may have some inherent value when it comes down to international transactions (or transactions in general). If international transactions in crypto are cheaper than with banks, clearly those who want to make these transactions do see some inherent value in the currency. That is, its value would emerge from its transaction properties. I did suppress the paragraph because I just don't know enough about the fees of such transactions. I think it is reasonable to expect Banks and Financial entities to offer transaction fees lower than Crypto for all use cases. If that happened, then I just don't see any value in crypto whatsoever. I have said it a few times on HN: I see more potential into a "Crypto Dollar" than in crypto in general.
  - qqii 6y ago
    Can you elaborate on what you mean by Societal Costs of crypto? > I have said it a few times on HN: I see more potential into a "Crypto Dollar" than in crypto in general. This, and the potential of smart contracts that use the "Crypto Dollar" are where I see the most potential.
    - josalhor 6y ago
social_quotient 6y ago
How about mining diamonds? (Honest perspective check)
- josalhor 6y ago
  But diamonds do have some pretty awesome mechanical properties [0]. They do have intrinsic value. Sure, the intrinsic value of diamonds < value of diamonds, but at least when you mine diamonds a percentage of it will go into use. [0]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Material_properties_of_diamond https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Material_properties_of_diamond

chrisseaton 6y ago

Presumably people enjoy investing in crypto. It’s a hobby for many, like gaming.

pmiller2 6y ago
Presumably, gaming doesn't use as much electricity globally as the entire country of Argentina. https://www.bbc.com/news/technology-56012952 https://www.bbc.com/news/technology-56012952
- Tenoke 6y ago
  Why do you think that? Any stats or are you just guessing? I wouldn't be surprised if it's within an order of magnitude of that.
- chrisseaton 6y ago
  So how much electricity does gaming use?
ChuckNorris89 6y ago
>investing in crypto Crypto is an investment the same way $GME or playing the roulette is an investment. Better term would be speculating or gambling. Nothing wrong with either, but let's call it what it is.
- qqii 6y ago
  Comparing it to roulette is such a hyperbole. Would you say that penny stocks are playing the roulette? You may argue they have similar odds but there are fundimental differences between them.
  - ChuckNorris89 6y ago
    >Would you say that penny stocks are playing the roulette? Where did I talk about penny stocks? I was talking about volatile meme stocks like $GME being like playing the roulette.
    - qqii 6y ago
      There's still a difference between buying $GME and playing roulette. Volatile as it may be the chance of loosing all of your investment is greatly lower with meme stocks.
- chrisseaton 6y ago
  Isn’t that what I already said? Investing as a hobby? Recreation? Like investing in Pokemon cards?
  - ChuckNorris89 6y ago
    Investing involves spending money with the intent to make financial returns on your investment. Buying assets "as a hobby" that depreciate or generate no income, is just that, buying for a hobby, not investing.
    - chrisseaton 6y ago
josalhor 6y ago
Are you saying there are people out there that are happier investing in "crypto" than in "stock X" or "gold" or "bonds"? It just makes them happier that that particular name appears on the screen? I don't doubt that is the case, but that kind of reinforces my point. The societal cost of crypto is too high. If we have to justify the electrical consumption of crypto because people enjoy it more when they see its name on their screen, we are clearly doing something wrong.
- chrisseaton 6y ago
  I think they enjoy being part of a community and seeing a number go up and down. Like Fantasy Football. It’s a hobby.

pmiller2 6y ago

> I don't see tangible value in crypto. Crypto is worth what other people are willing to pay for it. If you wanted to invest in an asset that does not depend on the currency you could buy gold. Try convincing any crypto "enthusiast" of that, though. Literally none of them have ever been able to explain to me why cryptocurrencies should have value, but that doesn't stop them from proclaiming it the best thing since sliced bread.

qqii 6y ago
It comes down to opinion but I'd argue there is inherent value in a trustless medium of exchange, a trustless explicit protocol for lending, market making (exchange) or gambling or the platform that powers them. I'd also agree that price bubbles happen and future speculation becomes a dominating factor in their price action, but this doesn't mean they don't have inherent value.
- salawat 6y ago
  It isn't trustless. If it's finance, it's trust based at the very core. Somebody is trusting somebody else to recognize the value up for offer, and being capable of converting it to a utilizable form. This is what crypto-enthusiasts must be blind to. We could be using bottlecaps to do the same bloody thing. Nobody wants to though. Why? Because nobody else takes the value assertion of a bottle cap seriously. As long as people keep buying into the hype, and the enthusiasm is kept up through selective refusal to accept the realities and externalities of the process, then the gravy train continues.
  - qqii 6y ago
    It's not about trusting if the bottle caps are worth anything or are useful, but if the supply and exchange of bottle caps follows the financial rules that are dictated.
tiborsaas 6y ago
Finite resources have value.

daniellarusso 6y ago

I was reading your comment and thought ‘The original Crysis release was very bad for the environment.’ Does the efficiency with which a game utilizes system resources alter its value? Sort of the inverse of crypto.

aemreunal 6y ago

> I don't see tangible value in crypto. Crypto is worth what other people are willing to pay for it. That's pretty much true for anything that has financial value, though. Setting aside the chemical properties of gold (conductivity, resistance to corrosion, etc.) that make it more valuable than some other metals, pretty much every financial construct in human culture is only valuable because we decided it was valuable. That's not to say everything is inherently valueless, but crypto is not too dissimilar to, say, digital coins for a game; you just can't usually swap it back in the latter case so it has little/no tangible value. Similarly, the value of stocks, foreign currency, even money itself fluctuates daily. As long as you can swap it back to "real" money, I see it as having tangible value. That being said, I personally choose not to get involved in any cryptocurrency because I would rather invest in more "established" forms of value, like stocks and bonds and whatnot.

josalhor 6y ago
> That's pretty much true for anything that has financial value, though. Correct. Maybe a better statement would be "I don't see that the inherent value of crypto is bigger than that of the dollar or gold". This gets even more complicated when you take into account the cost of the transactions that I have discussed with another user.

qqii 6y ago

Although you may disagree with the current value of most cryptocurrencies would you at least agree that their inhenrant value isn't 0? Newer projects like Uniswap, AAVE and MakerDAO (for DAI) are uniquely new and novel concepts that can't be accomplished trustlessly without blockchain technology. Bitcoin has a lot of intangibles (name recognition, trust, hashpower) and for many is a more intersting asset (in what it represents) compared to gold.

josalhor 6y ago
> Although you may disagree with the current value of most cryptocurrencies I would like to clarify something. I didn't say I disagreed with the value of cryptocurrencies (that is, its value in dollars). I said I find their societal cost way too high. In other terms, (Inherent Value of crypto < Societal Costs of crypto). > would you at least agree that their inhenrant value isn't 0? I agree with that. Although my previous answer stated "I don't see tangible value in crypto" I suppressed the paragraph that said that crypto may have some inherent value when it comes down to international transactions (or transactions in general). If international transactions in crypto are cheaper than with banks, clearly those who want to make these transactions do see some inherent value in the currency. That is, its value would emerge from its transaction properties. I did suppress the paragraph because I just don't know enough about the fees of such transactions. I think it is reasonable to expect Banks and Financial entities to offer transaction fees lower than Crypto for all use cases. If that happened, then I just don't see any value in crypto whatsoever. I have said it a few times on HN: I see more potential into a "Crypto Dollar" than in crypto in general.
- qqii 6y ago
  Can you elaborate on what you mean by Societal Costs of crypto? > I have said it a few times on HN: I see more potential into a "Crypto Dollar" than in crypto in general. This, and the potential of smart contracts that use the "Crypto Dollar" are where I see the most potential.
  - josalhor 6y ago

social_quotient 6y ago

How about mining diamonds? (Honest perspective check)

josalhor 6y ago
But diamonds do have some pretty awesome mechanical properties [0]. They do have intrinsic value. Sure, the intrinsic value of diamonds < value of diamonds, but at least when you mine diamonds a percentage of it will go into use. [0]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Material_properties_of_diamond https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Material_properties_of_diamond