7 ms·

> But, it is way, way, less stressful living here, just in general. Americans have no idea. The taxes are worth the peace of mind along with the stability it gi

by vecinu 6y ago

> But, it is way, way, less stressful living here, just in general. Americans have no idea. The taxes are worth the peace of mind along with the stability it gives society. Can you please go on with this point and provide some 1-1 examples you've personally seen? I keep dreaming and have, for the last 5 years, about leaving the US and living in Europe but I feel like I'm throwing away an enormous economic opportunity by moving now. I have accumulated and will continue accumulating wealth that would be impossible to accumulate in any European country in my lifetime. I keep saying, one more year, just one more year and it seems to be a hamster wheel that never stops spinning. I'm afraid I'll wake up one day, after saying one more year, that I'm 50 years old with 2 kids and a life in the US that I'll have a harder time leaving behind.

ornornor 6y ago
> leaving the US and living in Europe but I feel like I'm throwing away an enormous economic opportunity Check out Luxembourg, Switzerland, and Lichtenstein. These places pay incredibly well and once you factor in the cost of healthcare and general quality of life, the US looks like a bad joke. These three countries’ job market is accessible with a Schengen visa.
- tonfa 6y ago
  > These three countries’ job market is accessible with a Schengen visa. Is that true? I'd have assumed that EU citizens have access, but non-EU would need to apply specifically for FL/CH work permits. (and I'm not sure, is there actually a EU-wide work permit for non-EU? I had the impression that each country is still handling non-EU permit separately) (tourist visa are different of course)
  - ornornor 6y ago
    I don’t know about FL but for CH you do have to apply for a permit. However, if you have a job offer and an EU passport you basically just pay the fee for the permit and you’ll get it (usually for five years). And af r the five years you can either renew your work permit or apply for permanent residency. Same goes for CH nationals who want to work in the EU.
    - tonfa 6y ago
      Definitely as CH takes part in the freedom of movement with EU. My comment was really about non EU+ nationals. If you get a working permit as a 3rd party national with no treaty with EU, in eg Germany, can you just move to Spain and work?
      - ornornor 6y ago
        I think so, yes. At least that’s how I understand residence works: you get a residence permit for say Belgium and you can use that permit to move and go live in Portugal for instance. Not an expert and no first hand experience with this, I might be completely wrong.
disabled 6y ago
The European Union member states subscribe to multiple fundamental ideas, one of which is the principle of solidarity. This means that there is a strong social safety net, and we take care of the vulnerable. I do not have to worry about the cost of my medical care or other social needs. I pay my taxes, do my part as a citizen, and I know I will be taken care of. Essentially, because of this I do not have to live in fear. I basically chose my field of work due to the need for health insurance, as an American. When I was at university, some semesters I was basically going to university just to keep and maintain health insurance, when I was sick beyond belief. It was unbelievably stressful. I never would have needed to do this if I was a Croatian citizen at that time. I also do not have to accumulate huge amounts of wealth to ensure I am cared for, like I would in America. I do not have to be on a hamster wheel that never stops spinning, due to the principle of solidarity. I simply get to be free. I do not have to work a job just for benefits or for pay. I do not have to work long grueling hours. Anyways, the best country to get EU citizenship in, usually for people on here is Republic of Ireland, which permits dual citizenship. You can get citizenship there in 5 years. Besides getting Freedom of Movement rights to live/work/retire in the EU/EFTA (minus Lichtenstein), you also get rights to live/work/retire in the UK, due to treaties and historical ties. Also, most people here are skilled workers in tech. In Ireland, for many people here on this site, you can get a job visa to Ireland relatively easily, without a skilled worker test (which means that the Irish employer has to demonstrate that they are not taking a job from an EU citizen by hiring you--the documentation required can be harsh for the employer), as there is an exemption: https://enterprise.gov.ie/en/What-We-Do/Workplace-and-Skills/Employment-Permits/Employment-Permit-Eligibility/Highly-Skilled-Eligible-Occupations-List/ https://enterprise.gov.ie/en/What-We-Do/Workplace-and-Skills...
- vecinu 6y ago
  Thanks for sharing. I spent some time in Europe albeit that was a long time ago and I feel like I was too young to experience the hardships of life I'm facing in the US. I know the safety nets you're referring to, they're there for health care, unemployment and worker rights. Things that don't really exist for most people in the US if they're unemployed or in a regular job. I'm lucky to be in a well paid, high lucrative job even if I have to pay the highest taxes in the US (Which let's be real, are little compared to the EU). I have a Romanian passport so it's easy to jump over the pond but I'd love my US residency and all the years I put in to be able to start switching jobs more easily. I don't want a ridiculous amount of wealth but I'd love to have a head start and secure financial freedom for my family. One of my friends just left Munich for Colorado, he said houses are still too expensive in major German cities and salaries too low. He was working remote for a SV company and making big bucks for EU standards. I keep hearing how I'll just have to swallow a tiny salary compared to SV wages if I move to any EU country, Switzerland included. I guess I have to get to the point where I'm ready to leave the consumerism behind, be happy with extra vacation / free time and "unprogram" every bad habit I learned while living in the US.
cko 6y ago
I am semi retired (unemployed) living in Romania, but you'd likely want to be in Portugal for the cost of living, weather, and food. Also they have a ten year tax friendly program called Non Habitual Residency. I'm currently aiming for Portugal. Yes, salaries are low all across the EU (Switzerland is not in the EU) and taxes are high, so ideally I recommend working remotely and bouncing between Portugal and Spain or finding a post retirement hobby (easier said than done). (By the way I did consider Croatia too as it is similarly inexpensive, but Romanian is an easier language and I already knew people here from previous travels).
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
- vecinu 6y ago
  That's interesting, I have a Romanian passport but didn't live long enough there to actually get a feel for what life is like day to day. I think being a worker and having to have a job in RO would be soul crushing, from what I hear from friends and family. Portugal seems a great in between if you can swing a remote job, a lot of tech workers prefer it for the low cost of living and climate, like you said. It seems working remotely is the best option but I'm not sure how feasible that is long term and with timezone differences.
  - ChuckNorris89 6y ago
    >I think being a worker and having to have a job in RO would be soul crushing, from what I hear from friends and family. Overall, for most of the population, yes. However, if you're a tech worker, no, as that puts you in the top %10 of earners. In many ways, Romania is like the US, high inequality, low taxes, and poor quality social services, unless you have a corporate job, then you can live like a King as the huge pay(relative speaking) and job perks give you an edge over everyone else.
    - vecinu 6y ago
      > In many ways, Romania is like the US This made me chuckle, I often compare California to Romania (since I know both places well) and can contrast the corruption, money waste, terrible infrastructure and inequality in a way that friends / family that moved from Romania can't agree with. They always paint Romania as a third world *hole that's incomparable to the US/Canada or other "civilized" countries. I follow the news, political developments and have friends there so I'm aware how far it's gotten in the last 2 decades, I'm pretty proud of the direction they're heading in. The only caveat I have for you with living in RO vs the US is the healthcare system. Even if you opt for private care, the really good doctors, the emergency procedures that need to be done in public hospitals are a disgrace. At least in the US if you "live like a king", you can pay for a king's level of healthcare. In RO, you literally have to fly to Germany/Switzerland or elsewhere to get quality healthcare and if you have a really bad accident, you may not make it to the hospital to get the care you need. That's the one thing keeping me from moving to RO today, even with its extremely low cost of living. I can't risk my family's health on the disastrous healthcare system there.
feanaro 6y ago
What do you need this wealth for? Bear in mind that wealth is relative. The differences in cost of living are dramatic between countries so a much smaller wealth in one country can be much larger in another.
- vecinu 6y ago
  > What do you need this wealth for? Insurance for the future. Maybe I get bored of software, maybe I want to take a few years off and not have to work. Maybe I won't be able to "unprogram" the consumerist habits I picked up in the US and will fall back into buying things I don't really need (like Hi-Fi, photography equipment, gaming rigs, TVs, etc...) and will need funds to continue doing that. I don't know, I guess I spent too much time in the US and deeply concluded that it's better to have wealth than to not have it. I have a lot of reflection to do. Even adjusting for cost of living, if I bring $1M over to the EU, I couldn't stop working for the next 50 years, I would need a few for $xMs for that.
  - feanaro 6y ago
    Yes, stopping all work for the next 50 years right now wouldn't be realistic with that. But then again, you're definitely not going to be stopping work while trying to accumulate more wealth either.
    - vecinu 6y ago
      Correct but with an optimistic projection of working for 5-10 more years, I could stop working forever, unless I want to work for fun / enjoyment (or say no to crappy jobs) and then move to the EU. If I move to the EU now and take a hit in income, that will become impossible.
      - tonfa 6y ago
        Germany median salary is 42k EUR (and I guess one of the highest in the eurozone, Portugal seem to be 25k USD), depending on your lifestyle, I think many people could actually retire with 1M...
ThePowerOfFuet 6y ago
> I have accumulated and will continue accumulating wealth that would be impossible to accumulate in any European country in my lifetime. "Some people are so poor that all they have is money."
- emteycz 6y ago
  Don't act like you don't need a lot of money in Europe.
  - barrkel 6y ago
    Well, you don't need a lot of money. The exception would normally be medical needs but those are generally covered if you're in the system. You may want things that cost a lot of money, but this is a different problem, with more than one solution. (I'm not advocating curtailed wants or frugality. My life is pretty comfy and I like it that way.)
    - emteycz 6y ago
      Not every place in EU has tax-funded universal healthcare. It's the minority actually. Most countries require you to pay health insurance - and that's certainly not cheap if you're a software engineer as it's based on your income - e.g. 13.5% of my pre-tax (25%) income where I live; that makes it more expensive (absolutely - without income adjustment) than the most expensive premium US health insurance plan for me, without any of the perks. And where is universal healthcare there are also enormous taxes (>50%). Real estate is much more expensive in major European cities compared to US major cities (income-adjusted), and is taxed a lot on top of income taxes. And rural real estate is much cheaper in the US both absolutely and income-adjusted. Vehicles and fuel are more expensive here too + again major taxes. Traveling by public transport is reality only in major German and French metropolitan areas, you need a car everywhere else as soon as you need to cross the city border at least semi-regularly. And yet not even coronavirus tests are free here, as opposed to many places in the US.

by vecinu 6y ago

ornornor 6y ago

> leaving the US and living in Europe but I feel like I'm throwing away an enormous economic opportunity Check out Luxembourg, Switzerland, and Lichtenstein. These places pay incredibly well and once you factor in the cost of healthcare and general quality of life, the US looks like a bad joke. These three countries’ job market is accessible with a Schengen visa.

tonfa 6y ago
> These three countries’ job market is accessible with a Schengen visa. Is that true? I'd have assumed that EU citizens have access, but non-EU would need to apply specifically for FL/CH work permits. (and I'm not sure, is there actually a EU-wide work permit for non-EU? I had the impression that each country is still handling non-EU permit separately) (tourist visa are different of course)
- ornornor 6y ago
  I don’t know about FL but for CH you do have to apply for a permit. However, if you have a job offer and an EU passport you basically just pay the fee for the permit and you’ll get it (usually for five years). And af r the five years you can either renew your work permit or apply for permanent residency. Same goes for CH nationals who want to work in the EU.
  - tonfa 6y ago
    Definitely as CH takes part in the freedom of movement with EU. My comment was really about non EU+ nationals. If you get a working permit as a 3rd party national with no treaty with EU, in eg Germany, can you just move to Spain and work?
    - ornornor 6y ago
      I think so, yes. At least that’s how I understand residence works: you get a residence permit for say Belgium and you can use that permit to move and go live in Portugal for instance. Not an expert and no first hand experience with this, I might be completely wrong.

disabled 6y ago

The European Union member states subscribe to multiple fundamental ideas, one of which is the principle of solidarity. This means that there is a strong social safety net, and we take care of the vulnerable. I do not have to worry about the cost of my medical care or other social needs. I pay my taxes, do my part as a citizen, and I know I will be taken care of. Essentially, because of this I do not have to live in fear. I basically chose my field of work due to the need for health insurance, as an American. When I was at university, some semesters I was basically going to university just to keep and maintain health insurance, when I was sick beyond belief. It was unbelievably stressful. I never would have needed to do this if I was a Croatian citizen at that time. I also do not have to accumulate huge amounts of wealth to ensure I am cared for, like I would in America. I do not have to be on a hamster wheel that never stops spinning, due to the principle of solidarity. I simply get to be free. I do not have to work a job just for benefits or for pay. I do not have to work long grueling hours. Anyways, the best country to get EU citizenship in, usually for people on here is Republic of Ireland, which permits dual citizenship. You can get citizenship there in 5 years. Besides getting Freedom of Movement rights to live/work/retire in the EU/EFTA (minus Lichtenstein), you also get rights to live/work/retire in the UK, due to treaties and historical ties. Also, most people here are skilled workers in tech. In Ireland, for many people here on this site, you can get a job visa to Ireland relatively easily, without a skilled worker test (which means that the Irish employer has to demonstrate that they are not taking a job from an EU citizen by hiring you--the documentation required can be harsh for the employer), as there is an exemption: https://enterprise.gov.ie/en/What-We-Do/Workplace-and-Skills/Employment-Permits/Employment-Permit-Eligibility/Highly-Skilled-Eligible-Occupations-List/ https://enterprise.gov.ie/en/What-We-Do/Workplace-and-Skills...

vecinu 6y ago
Thanks for sharing. I spent some time in Europe albeit that was a long time ago and I feel like I was too young to experience the hardships of life I'm facing in the US. I know the safety nets you're referring to, they're there for health care, unemployment and worker rights. Things that don't really exist for most people in the US if they're unemployed or in a regular job. I'm lucky to be in a well paid, high lucrative job even if I have to pay the highest taxes in the US (Which let's be real, are little compared to the EU). I have a Romanian passport so it's easy to jump over the pond but I'd love my US residency and all the years I put in to be able to start switching jobs more easily. I don't want a ridiculous amount of wealth but I'd love to have a head start and secure financial freedom for my family. One of my friends just left Munich for Colorado, he said houses are still too expensive in major German cities and salaries too low. He was working remote for a SV company and making big bucks for EU standards. I keep hearing how I'll just have to swallow a tiny salary compared to SV wages if I move to any EU country, Switzerland included. I guess I have to get to the point where I'm ready to leave the consumerism behind, be happy with extra vacation / free time and "unprogram" every bad habit I learned while living in the US.

cko 6y ago

I am semi retired (unemployed) living in Romania, but you'd likely want to be in Portugal for the cost of living, weather, and food. Also they have a ten year tax friendly program called Non Habitual Residency. I'm currently aiming for Portugal. Yes, salaries are low all across the EU (Switzerland is not in the EU) and taxes are high, so ideally I recommend working remotely and bouncing between Portugal and Spain or finding a post retirement hobby (easier said than done). (By the way I did consider Croatia too as it is similarly inexpensive, but Romanian is an easier language and I already knew people here from previous travels).

deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
vecinu 6y ago
That's interesting, I have a Romanian passport but didn't live long enough there to actually get a feel for what life is like day to day. I think being a worker and having to have a job in RO would be soul crushing, from what I hear from friends and family. Portugal seems a great in between if you can swing a remote job, a lot of tech workers prefer it for the low cost of living and climate, like you said. It seems working remotely is the best option but I'm not sure how feasible that is long term and with timezone differences.
- ChuckNorris89 6y ago
  >I think being a worker and having to have a job in RO would be soul crushing, from what I hear from friends and family. Overall, for most of the population, yes. However, if you're a tech worker, no, as that puts you in the top %10 of earners. In many ways, Romania is like the US, high inequality, low taxes, and poor quality social services, unless you have a corporate job, then you can live like a King as the huge pay(relative speaking) and job perks give you an edge over everyone else.
  - vecinu 6y ago
    > In many ways, Romania is like the US This made me chuckle, I often compare California to Romania (since I know both places well) and can contrast the corruption, money waste, terrible infrastructure and inequality in a way that friends / family that moved from Romania can't agree with. They always paint Romania as a third world *hole that's incomparable to the US/Canada or other "civilized" countries. I follow the news, political developments and have friends there so I'm aware how far it's gotten in the last 2 decades, I'm pretty proud of the direction they're heading in. The only caveat I have for you with living in RO vs the US is the healthcare system. Even if you opt for private care, the really good doctors, the emergency procedures that need to be done in public hospitals are a disgrace. At least in the US if you "live like a king", you can pay for a king's level of healthcare. In RO, you literally have to fly to Germany/Switzerland or elsewhere to get quality healthcare and if you have a really bad accident, you may not make it to the hospital to get the care you need. That's the one thing keeping me from moving to RO today, even with its extremely low cost of living. I can't risk my family's health on the disastrous healthcare system there.

feanaro 6y ago

What do you need this wealth for? Bear in mind that wealth is relative. The differences in cost of living are dramatic between countries so a much smaller wealth in one country can be much larger in another.

vecinu 6y ago
> What do you need this wealth for? Insurance for the future. Maybe I get bored of software, maybe I want to take a few years off and not have to work. Maybe I won't be able to "unprogram" the consumerist habits I picked up in the US and will fall back into buying things I don't really need (like Hi-Fi, photography equipment, gaming rigs, TVs, etc...) and will need funds to continue doing that. I don't know, I guess I spent too much time in the US and deeply concluded that it's better to have wealth than to not have it. I have a lot of reflection to do. Even adjusting for cost of living, if I bring $1M over to the EU, I couldn't stop working for the next 50 years, I would need a few for $xMs for that.
- feanaro 6y ago
  Yes, stopping all work for the next 50 years right now wouldn't be realistic with that. But then again, you're definitely not going to be stopping work while trying to accumulate more wealth either.
  - vecinu 6y ago
    Correct but with an optimistic projection of working for 5-10 more years, I could stop working forever, unless I want to work for fun / enjoyment (or say no to crappy jobs) and then move to the EU. If I move to the EU now and take a hit in income, that will become impossible.
    - tonfa 6y ago
      Germany median salary is 42k EUR (and I guess one of the highest in the eurozone, Portugal seem to be 25k USD), depending on your lifestyle, I think many people could actually retire with 1M...

ThePowerOfFuet 6y ago

> I have accumulated and will continue accumulating wealth that would be impossible to accumulate in any European country in my lifetime. "Some people are so poor that all they have is money."

emteycz 6y ago
Don't act like you don't need a lot of money in Europe.
- barrkel 6y ago
  Well, you don't need a lot of money. The exception would normally be medical needs but those are generally covered if you're in the system. You may want things that cost a lot of money, but this is a different problem, with more than one solution. (I'm not advocating curtailed wants or frugality. My life is pretty comfy and I like it that way.)
  - emteycz 6y ago
    Not every place in EU has tax-funded universal healthcare. It's the minority actually. Most countries require you to pay health insurance - and that's certainly not cheap if you're a software engineer as it's based on your income - e.g. 13.5% of my pre-tax (25%) income where I live; that makes it more expensive (absolutely - without income adjustment) than the most expensive premium US health insurance plan for me, without any of the perks. And where is universal healthcare there are also enormous taxes (>50%). Real estate is much more expensive in major European cities compared to US major cities (income-adjusted), and is taxed a lot on top of income taxes. And rural real estate is much cheaper in the US both absolutely and income-adjusted. Vehicles and fuel are more expensive here too + again major taxes. Traveling by public transport is reality only in major German and French metropolitan areas, you need a car everywhere else as soon as you need to cross the city border at least semi-regularly. And yet not even coronavirus tests are free here, as opposed to many places in the US.