4 ms·

> On the other hand, virtualization _already_ lets you run whatever arm64 BSD, Linux, or Windows that you want. The trackpad and everything else will work flawl

> On the other hand, virtualization _already_ lets you run whatever arm64 BSD, Linux, or Windows that you want. The trackpad and everything else will work flawlessly thanks to guest additions. Yes, you make some tradeoffs -- you sacrifice a core, a few GB of RAM, some disk space for an OS you don't _really_ want to be running. But I'm skeptical that these are not better tradeoffs than constantly using a hacked-together and half-broken OS. True in theory, but at least with Linux I've found that desktop environments exhibit a slight but maddening level of sluggishness in VMs, no matter if it's GNOME, KDE, XFCE, or MATE. If all you need is a commandline Linux VMs are great but I'd go insane trying to use one as a graphical desktop for an extended period.

Wowfunhappy 6y ago
Really, that goes for any guest OS other than maybe Windows, and Windows is different only because VM developers have poured an enormous amount of time and money into it. You can get rid of the sluggishness with GPU passthrough... but then the guest OS would still need GPU drivers.
- tluyben2 6y ago
  It would be to Apple's advantage somewhat to make that happen right? Apple wants to sell hardware and does not mind people running virtualised Windows or Linux on it?
  - pushrax 6y ago
    Apple also tends to prefer pushing their users to their closed software ecosystem. Given the likely low demand for passthrough on these devices, I kind of doubt they'll implement it in the foreseeable future.
  - presentation 6y ago
    They also sell services though, and their products reinforce one another so that once you’re bought into their ecosystem it ties you to Apple products in perpetuity. I know because it happened to me; doesn’t happen if you’re not actually using the OS.
    - coldtea 6y ago
      >so that once you’re bought into their ecosystem it ties you to Apple products in perpetuity. Only because of the seamlessness (within reason) of the experience. Otherwise, there's nothing to switching to another OS for all or any part of it. Many (most?) apps people use everyday are web- or Electron based, so they can switch to any other Windows or Linux with e.g. Chrome. Their music is in some streaming service (Spotify, Apple Music, Google Play, etc) all of which play on other OSes (and in any case, they can change subscription and they haven't lost anything). Or, for the fussier, it's mp3 or flac files, they can easily move. Even bought music (aac) from the iTunes Store is playable in other platform (since Apple has removed the DRM for a decade or so). Ditto for movies. It's all streaming nowadays, and you can just switch to another streaming service (and all play everywhere anyway). As for professional apps, most heavy ones (MS Office, Adobe Suite, Cubase, Live, Resolve, etc) run just fine in both OSX and Windows, and come with dual installers, so you can switch if you like (some even allow for multiple computers at the same time). (If you're using Logic or FCPX, then sure, you'll need to find another program, and go through the pain of migrating your projects). For mobile it's the same thing. E.g. you can sync just fine with an Android phone (you just don't get niceties like Handoff, Scan-to-Notes, etc). So there's nothing special to "tie you to Apple products in perpetuity" except "I might lose the use of some apps that are Mac Only" (so same thing that would have tied you to Windows or Linux in perpetuity).
- pushrax 6y ago
  I'm don't think you can do GPU or PCI passthrough on macOS. Not sure if/when Apple would consider adding that. I'm glad the things I want to do on Linux are all terminal based. I used a tiling WM for years on Arch and don't miss it much with all the macOS WM extensions available now (Magnet, Rectangle, Moom, Hammerspoon, etc). Less themeable but perfectly functional.
  - dwaite 6y ago
    > I'm don't think you can do GPU or PCI passthrough on macOS. Not sure if/when Apple would consider adding that. With Big Sur, Apple now has paravirtualization support. It exposes Metal API to manipulate virtual display devices. See https://developer.apple.com/documentation/paravirtualizedgraphics/pgdisplay https://developer.apple.com/documentation/paravirtualizedgra... I doubt Apple has any intention of publishing hardware documentation for someone to write a native driver, but there are behavioral reverse engineering efforts already underway.
    - pushrax 6y ago
      Very nice. An advantage of paravirtualization is that compositing across the guest and host will work, unlike passthrough. Any rough indication of the level of performance?
- moistbar 6y ago
  You'd also either need two GPUs or some way to mux the guest output into the host output, so it's almost assuredly not happening.
bubblethink 6y ago
There are a couple of projects that improve this (for linux host + linux guest). virgl exposes accelerated graphics to the guest, which chromeOS uses in its offering. Intel also has its GVT-g offering which virtualises intel integrated GPUs. Of course, none of this applies to apple.

Wowfunhappy 6y ago

Really, that goes for any guest OS other than maybe Windows, and Windows is different only because VM developers have poured an enormous amount of time and money into it. You can get rid of the sluggishness with GPU passthrough... but then the guest OS would still need GPU drivers.

tluyben2 6y ago
It would be to Apple's advantage somewhat to make that happen right? Apple wants to sell hardware and does not mind people running virtualised Windows or Linux on it?
- pushrax 6y ago
  Apple also tends to prefer pushing their users to their closed software ecosystem. Given the likely low demand for passthrough on these devices, I kind of doubt they'll implement it in the foreseeable future.
- presentation 6y ago
  They also sell services though, and their products reinforce one another so that once you’re bought into their ecosystem it ties you to Apple products in perpetuity. I know because it happened to me; doesn’t happen if you’re not actually using the OS.
  - coldtea 6y ago
    >so that once you’re bought into their ecosystem it ties you to Apple products in perpetuity. Only because of the seamlessness (within reason) of the experience. Otherwise, there's nothing to switching to another OS for all or any part of it. Many (most?) apps people use everyday are web- or Electron based, so they can switch to any other Windows or Linux with e.g. Chrome. Their music is in some streaming service (Spotify, Apple Music, Google Play, etc) all of which play on other OSes (and in any case, they can change subscription and they haven't lost anything). Or, for the fussier, it's mp3 or flac files, they can easily move. Even bought music (aac) from the iTunes Store is playable in other platform (since Apple has removed the DRM for a decade or so). Ditto for movies. It's all streaming nowadays, and you can just switch to another streaming service (and all play everywhere anyway). As for professional apps, most heavy ones (MS Office, Adobe Suite, Cubase, Live, Resolve, etc) run just fine in both OSX and Windows, and come with dual installers, so you can switch if you like (some even allow for multiple computers at the same time). (If you're using Logic or FCPX, then sure, you'll need to find another program, and go through the pain of migrating your projects). For mobile it's the same thing. E.g. you can sync just fine with an Android phone (you just don't get niceties like Handoff, Scan-to-Notes, etc). So there's nothing special to "tie you to Apple products in perpetuity" except "I might lose the use of some apps that are Mac Only" (so same thing that would have tied you to Windows or Linux in perpetuity).
pushrax 6y ago
I'm don't think you can do GPU or PCI passthrough on macOS. Not sure if/when Apple would consider adding that. I'm glad the things I want to do on Linux are all terminal based. I used a tiling WM for years on Arch and don't miss it much with all the macOS WM extensions available now (Magnet, Rectangle, Moom, Hammerspoon, etc). Less themeable but perfectly functional.
- dwaite 6y ago
  > I'm don't think you can do GPU or PCI passthrough on macOS. Not sure if/when Apple would consider adding that. With Big Sur, Apple now has paravirtualization support. It exposes Metal API to manipulate virtual display devices. See https://developer.apple.com/documentation/paravirtualizedgraphics/pgdisplay https://developer.apple.com/documentation/paravirtualizedgra... I doubt Apple has any intention of publishing hardware documentation for someone to write a native driver, but there are behavioral reverse engineering efforts already underway.
  - pushrax 6y ago
    Very nice. An advantage of paravirtualization is that compositing across the guest and host will work, unlike passthrough. Any rough indication of the level of performance?
moistbar 6y ago
You'd also either need two GPUs or some way to mux the guest output into the host output, so it's almost assuredly not happening.

bubblethink 6y ago

There are a couple of projects that improve this (for linux host + linux guest). virgl exposes accelerated graphics to the guest, which chromeOS uses in its offering. Intel also has its GVT-g offering which virtualises intel integrated GPUs. Of course, none of this applies to apple.