3 ms·

> but does it not leave a bad taste in your mouth that Apple charge the best part of 2 thousand dollars for a laptop with a basically brand-new (so not rotted)

> but does it not leave a bad taste in your mouth that Apple charge the best part of 2 thousand dollars for a laptop with a basically brand-new (so not rotted) stack but utterly refuse to document anything beyond the absolute basics Computers are tools to get a job done. I buy a computer so I can write software on it. While I am happy that we can get Linux and OpenBSD on a Mac, it's not a deal breaker. Regardless of whether OpenBSD or Linux boots on it, I can get my job done quickly and effectively. If they did something that got in the way of building the software I need to build? Then I'd punch out in a heartbeat. Not everyone is interesting in fiddling with the internals of the tools they buy. Even if that tool is a computer.

mhh__ 6y ago
> If they did something that got in the way of building the software I need to build? Then I'd punch out in a heartbeat. Sadly I don't do it for a living, but the stuff I like to write is all tuned for performance, they don't tell me anything about the CPU, so even if I was in the market for one I still wouldn't buy one as I couldn't have any fun using it. And Computers stopped being mere tools years ago - the phone has now supplanted the laptop and desktop in this regard, but it remains true that many people are in terms of knowledge and purchasing power completely at the whim of (in this case) Apple to go about their lives.
- Shared404 6y ago
  I agree with most of what you say, but this: > And Computers stopped being mere tools years ago - the phone has now supplanted the laptop and desktop in this regard Is just plainly inaccurate. The phone has nowhere near supplanted the desktop in multiple scenarios. Office work and programming [0] both come to mind. [0] And this was the specific use-case brought up by the parent. Pretty obvious a phone is not a competitor for that.
  - mhh__ 6y ago
    My point was that the phone has supplanted the computer as the sole device for many people i.e. people of my generation will often ask for an app rather than a website
    - Shared404 6y ago
      That is a fair point. I just found it important to point out that for many use-cases, including most of the ones in this discussion, phones are a complete nonstarter. I do apologize for how aggressively I came across as well, that was uncalled for.
      - mhh__ 6y ago
        > I do apologize for how aggressively I came across as well, that was uncalled for. No problem https://xkcd.com/386/ https://xkcd.com/386/ - you know the drill!
    - digidob 6y ago
      To add to your point, an app is typically preferred for it’s performance compared to a website in a browser. As is developing on hardware with known quirks and structure vs vague hardware. I don’t understand the defense that developing on FOSS within unknown walls is somehow acceptable.
- ogre_codes 6y ago
  > And Computers stopped being mere tools years ago - the phone has now supplanted the laptop and desktop in this regard, but it remains true that many people are in terms of knowledge and purchasing power completely at the whim of (in this case) Apple to go about their lives. I don't follow your chain of though here at all. It is a thing I use to get a job done... that's pretty much the definition of what a tool is.
endgame 6y ago
> I buy a computer so I can write software on it. And I use Free Software operating systems to ensure that I can continue to do so.
- alsetmusic 6y ago
  >> I buy a computer so I can write software on it. > And I use Free Software operating systems to ensure that I can continue to do so. The point of this discussion is your ability to run a free OS on an M1 Mac.
  - webmobdev 6y ago
    Or rather the lack of ability to run a free os on M1.
- ogre_codes 6y ago
  I fully support this effort and the Linux port for the eventual time when Apple does eventually stop supporting this hardware. But at that point in time, I won't be relying on it for work anymore, it will be a hobby/ project, much like my G4 iMac. In the mean time, it's very fun seeing how quickly people are making progress on this.
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]

mhh__ 6y ago

> If they did something that got in the way of building the software I need to build? Then I'd punch out in a heartbeat. Sadly I don't do it for a living, but the stuff I like to write is all tuned for performance, they don't tell me anything about the CPU, so even if I was in the market for one I still wouldn't buy one as I couldn't have any fun using it. And Computers stopped being mere tools years ago - the phone has now supplanted the laptop and desktop in this regard, but it remains true that many people are in terms of knowledge and purchasing power completely at the whim of (in this case) Apple to go about their lives.

Shared404 6y ago
I agree with most of what you say, but this: > And Computers stopped being mere tools years ago - the phone has now supplanted the laptop and desktop in this regard Is just plainly inaccurate. The phone has nowhere near supplanted the desktop in multiple scenarios. Office work and programming [0] both come to mind. [0] And this was the specific use-case brought up by the parent. Pretty obvious a phone is not a competitor for that.
- mhh__ 6y ago
  My point was that the phone has supplanted the computer as the sole device for many people i.e. people of my generation will often ask for an app rather than a website
  - Shared404 6y ago
    That is a fair point. I just found it important to point out that for many use-cases, including most of the ones in this discussion, phones are a complete nonstarter. I do apologize for how aggressively I came across as well, that was uncalled for.
    - mhh__ 6y ago
      > I do apologize for how aggressively I came across as well, that was uncalled for. No problem https://xkcd.com/386/ https://xkcd.com/386/ - you know the drill!
  - digidob 6y ago
    To add to your point, an app is typically preferred for it’s performance compared to a website in a browser. As is developing on hardware with known quirks and structure vs vague hardware. I don’t understand the defense that developing on FOSS within unknown walls is somehow acceptable.
ogre_codes 6y ago
> And Computers stopped being mere tools years ago - the phone has now supplanted the laptop and desktop in this regard, but it remains true that many people are in terms of knowledge and purchasing power completely at the whim of (in this case) Apple to go about their lives. I don't follow your chain of though here at all. It is a thing I use to get a job done... that's pretty much the definition of what a tool is.

endgame 6y ago

> I buy a computer so I can write software on it. And I use Free Software operating systems to ensure that I can continue to do so.

alsetmusic 6y ago
>> I buy a computer so I can write software on it. > And I use Free Software operating systems to ensure that I can continue to do so. The point of this discussion is your ability to run a free OS on an M1 Mac.
- webmobdev 6y ago
  Or rather the lack of ability to run a free os on M1.
ogre_codes 6y ago
I fully support this effort and the Linux port for the eventual time when Apple does eventually stop supporting this hardware. But at that point in time, I won't be relying on it for work anymore, it will be a hobby/ project, much like my G4 iMac. In the mean time, it's very fun seeing how quickly people are making progress on this.
deleted 6y ago
[deleted]