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To be fair that wasn't the only type of knee jerk negative reaction here on this topic. IIRC there was another, more Apple-fan style commentary of "a free OS wi

To be fair that wasn't the only type of knee jerk negative reaction here on this topic. IIRC there was another, more Apple-fan style commentary of "a free OS will never run on this bespoke Apple product, and shouldn't". I for one am glad people are making progress.

djrogers 6y ago
I’ve read just about every M1 story and thread on HN since launch, and one of us is apparently mis-reading some posts here. I have never seen anything that I could remotely interpret as matching that sentiment.
- mhh__ 6y ago
  I didn't see it on the M1 threads but there have been some bizarrely "Corporations are not only people, but my friend"-ish arguments about "sideloading" (i.e. running software on a device you paid for!) on Apple products in general. In short, "But think of my Grandma" as opposed to think of the children.
  - mhh__ 6y ago
    Can no one even be bothered to debate the point?
    - paulmd 6y ago
      you're misrepresenting the point, the point people make is that apple curating apps on the app store is a good thing for user privacy and minimizing spyware, and that allowing sideloading or third-party app stores would immediately negate that as some of the biggest, most intrusive, and most socially-inescapeable apps (like facebook) would immediately demand they be sideloaded in order to escape the apple rules on permissions/user surveillance/etc. nobody thinks apple is doing it because they're their friend. And they know apple is making money off it. Some people prefer having apps with limited, audited permissions over a more wild-west approach where you could install anything and apps could demand anything or prevent you from using the app. (and if you don't that's fine, Android exists and no apple users mind that. Market choices are good, stop trying to shut down Apple's ability to provide a different experience.) if you really really want to sideload an app on an apple phone, pay the $50 a year for a developer account and you can compile and sideload whatever you want. Same for xbox btw, you can run any UWP app on an Xbox if you have a developer account.
      - mhh__ 6y ago
        I'm sure microsoft would've made the same argument in their anti-trust case - you're free to "sideload" any browser you want, or just buy a mac. Most apple users have almost zero-information in an economic sense. Market choices are being made when consumers are being segmented into very rigid, hard to leave, cultures like Apple and Google - on top of that Apple and partly google own much of the stores, they do all the marketing, and can wield considerable basically unchecked power over their users. And also, your mum isn't going to be using third party app stores, that whole part of the argument is quite vacuous and is effectively a logical basis for Apple to have complete oversight of everything on the app. And if she did want to play fortnite, Apple obviously aren't doing this for the goodness of their customers because they only pulled the plug when fortnite did the payments itself - that's just rentseeking.
        paulmd 6y ago
        > I'm sure microsoft would've made the same argument in their anti-trust case OK, let's talk Microsoft then. https://www.theverge.com/2020/6/19/21296657/microsoft-apple-app-store-antitrust-comments https://www.theverge.com/2020/6/19/21296657/microsoft-apple-... Microsoft is making exactly the same argument as Epic Games, in fact, but they're not racing to allow third-party app stores on the Xbox either. This is a one-way street, these companies want to sell locked-down hardware but be allowed onto their competitors' platforms. Similarly Facebook runs similarly exclusive stores on their Oculus Quest platform, which they also argue they should not have to open up. This is purely down to companies who themselves employ similarly locked-down stores, which they feel should not have to be similarly opened, wrapping themselves in the language of openness and using it to attack their competitors' business models while arguing they themselves should be excluded. They are not making a good-faith argument for openness, they are using the legal system to take down a competitor. Frankly I have much less problem with Microsoft opening up, since we don't do day-to-day business on our game consoles. How about they go first, model for us how an ethical company is supposed to behave? > And also, your mum isn't going to be using third party app stores, Yeah, actually, she will, that is the point. If she wants to use Facebook, she will use a third-party app store (where the application is not subject to Apple's rules about permissions and datamining). This is an immediate race to the bottom, won't even be a year and the superior privacy of the Apple ecosystem will have been completely undermined.
chipotle_coyote 6y ago
Like djrogers, I can't honestly say that I've seen a comment like that. I recall ones more like "I'm not interested in running another OS on my Mac" and "if you wanted to run Linux, why would you buy a Mac," but those really aren't the same sentiment.
- asveikau 6y ago
  Maybe you are more accurately describing it. Some of them also say that free OSs are often behind on Mac hardware anyway, even on Intel. But the implication that I read into it is there's little reason to do it.
  - ogre_codes 6y ago
    No big mystery here, people who buy Macs, prefer MacOS and don't see why you'd bother with Desktop Linux in general. I'm personally interested in Linux on the Mac as a curiosity and as an alternative in case Apple ever screws up MacOS so much I feel desktop Linux is the least bad alternative.
    - asveikau 6y ago
      I think M1 is a perfect example of why one might want to consider Apple's hardware and software in isolation, rather than a single integrated piece. There isn't currently another ARM laptop with the same performance characteristics. There have been other times when I thought apple hardware was more interesting than macOS. I don't think macOS is bad per se. There are times when I find it pleasant and times when I would greatly prefer something else. The attitude we're describing -- why use Linux when there is macOS?? -- strikes me as a little odd, because there is a built in hostility and assumption that everyone shares the Mac fan's opinions and preferences, universally and in all circumstances.
      - ogre_codes 6y ago
        I get it. It's a matter of perspective. As a Linux/ OpenBSD user, Mac hardware is suddenly a bit more appealing. As a Mac user, the reverse it not true. OpenBSD or Linux are no more appealing than it was before the switch. As for the rest of your post, I feel like the conversation is moving here under me. Use whatever OS you want. I don't see a ton of Mac people on here discouraging or disparaging any of this. I do see a a fair number of posts like the top one. "Running an alternative OS natively on a Mac doesn't seem very appealing to me." Which I don't see as the same as what you are suggesting.
alsetmusic 6y ago
> IIRC there was another, more Apple-fan style commentary of "a free OS will never run on this bespoke Apple product, and shouldn't". I’m the person to whom you are responding. I’m very interested in the M1 and never saw such a post. I’ve literally never heard anyone express this view about a Mac.

djrogers 6y ago

I’ve read just about every M1 story and thread on HN since launch, and one of us is apparently mis-reading some posts here. I have never seen anything that I could remotely interpret as matching that sentiment.

mhh__ 6y ago
I didn't see it on the M1 threads but there have been some bizarrely "Corporations are not only people, but my friend"-ish arguments about "sideloading" (i.e. running software on a device you paid for!) on Apple products in general. In short, "But think of my Grandma" as opposed to think of the children.
- mhh__ 6y ago
  Can no one even be bothered to debate the point?
  - paulmd 6y ago
    you're misrepresenting the point, the point people make is that apple curating apps on the app store is a good thing for user privacy and minimizing spyware, and that allowing sideloading or third-party app stores would immediately negate that as some of the biggest, most intrusive, and most socially-inescapeable apps (like facebook) would immediately demand they be sideloaded in order to escape the apple rules on permissions/user surveillance/etc. nobody thinks apple is doing it because they're their friend. And they know apple is making money off it. Some people prefer having apps with limited, audited permissions over a more wild-west approach where you could install anything and apps could demand anything or prevent you from using the app. (and if you don't that's fine, Android exists and no apple users mind that. Market choices are good, stop trying to shut down Apple's ability to provide a different experience.) if you really really want to sideload an app on an apple phone, pay the $50 a year for a developer account and you can compile and sideload whatever you want. Same for xbox btw, you can run any UWP app on an Xbox if you have a developer account.
    - mhh__ 6y ago
      I'm sure microsoft would've made the same argument in their anti-trust case - you're free to "sideload" any browser you want, or just buy a mac. Most apple users have almost zero-information in an economic sense. Market choices are being made when consumers are being segmented into very rigid, hard to leave, cultures like Apple and Google - on top of that Apple and partly google own much of the stores, they do all the marketing, and can wield considerable basically unchecked power over their users. And also, your mum isn't going to be using third party app stores, that whole part of the argument is quite vacuous and is effectively a logical basis for Apple to have complete oversight of everything on the app. And if she did want to play fortnite, Apple obviously aren't doing this for the goodness of their customers because they only pulled the plug when fortnite did the payments itself - that's just rentseeking.
      - paulmd 6y ago
        > I'm sure microsoft would've made the same argument in their anti-trust case OK, let's talk Microsoft then. https://www.theverge.com/2020/6/19/21296657/microsoft-apple-app-store-antitrust-comments https://www.theverge.com/2020/6/19/21296657/microsoft-apple-... Microsoft is making exactly the same argument as Epic Games, in fact, but they're not racing to allow third-party app stores on the Xbox either. This is a one-way street, these companies want to sell locked-down hardware but be allowed onto their competitors' platforms. Similarly Facebook runs similarly exclusive stores on their Oculus Quest platform, which they also argue they should not have to open up. This is purely down to companies who themselves employ similarly locked-down stores, which they feel should not have to be similarly opened, wrapping themselves in the language of openness and using it to attack their competitors' business models while arguing they themselves should be excluded. They are not making a good-faith argument for openness, they are using the legal system to take down a competitor. Frankly I have much less problem with Microsoft opening up, since we don't do day-to-day business on our game consoles. How about they go first, model for us how an ethical company is supposed to behave? > And also, your mum isn't going to be using third party app stores, Yeah, actually, she will, that is the point. If she wants to use Facebook, she will use a third-party app store (where the application is not subject to Apple's rules about permissions and datamining). This is an immediate race to the bottom, won't even be a year and the superior privacy of the Apple ecosystem will have been completely undermined.

chipotle_coyote 6y ago

Like djrogers, I can't honestly say that I've seen a comment like that. I recall ones more like "I'm not interested in running another OS on my Mac" and "if you wanted to run Linux, why would you buy a Mac," but those really aren't the same sentiment.

asveikau 6y ago
Maybe you are more accurately describing it. Some of them also say that free OSs are often behind on Mac hardware anyway, even on Intel. But the implication that I read into it is there's little reason to do it.
- ogre_codes 6y ago
  No big mystery here, people who buy Macs, prefer MacOS and don't see why you'd bother with Desktop Linux in general. I'm personally interested in Linux on the Mac as a curiosity and as an alternative in case Apple ever screws up MacOS so much I feel desktop Linux is the least bad alternative.
  - asveikau 6y ago
    I think M1 is a perfect example of why one might want to consider Apple's hardware and software in isolation, rather than a single integrated piece. There isn't currently another ARM laptop with the same performance characteristics. There have been other times when I thought apple hardware was more interesting than macOS. I don't think macOS is bad per se. There are times when I find it pleasant and times when I would greatly prefer something else. The attitude we're describing -- why use Linux when there is macOS?? -- strikes me as a little odd, because there is a built in hostility and assumption that everyone shares the Mac fan's opinions and preferences, universally and in all circumstances.
    - ogre_codes 6y ago
      I get it. It's a matter of perspective. As a Linux/ OpenBSD user, Mac hardware is suddenly a bit more appealing. As a Mac user, the reverse it not true. OpenBSD or Linux are no more appealing than it was before the switch. As for the rest of your post, I feel like the conversation is moving here under me. Use whatever OS you want. I don't see a ton of Mac people on here discouraging or disparaging any of this. I do see a a fair number of posts like the top one. "Running an alternative OS natively on a Mac doesn't seem very appealing to me." Which I don't see as the same as what you are suggesting.

alsetmusic 6y ago

> IIRC there was another, more Apple-fan style commentary of "a free OS will never run on this bespoke Apple product, and shouldn't". I’m the person to whom you are responding. I’m very interested in the M1 and never saw such a post. I’ve literally never heard anyone express this view about a Mac.