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> For what? For nothing, just because. Don’t seek a rational explanation, you won’t find it. It doesn’t exist. Having a child is type of experience and commitm

> For what? For nothing, just because. Don’t seek a rational explanation, you won’t find it. It doesn’t exist. Having a child is type of experience and commitment that has no parallel in any domain of life. It shapes you in certain ways if you are devoted to it. I want to be that type of person because I recognize some qualities that I admire (like being way less self-centric). My body is designed so that it can do this. Hence, not having children is against the design. Its like using oven as newspaper holder - nothing wrong with that, but using oven by design is something else which you can't really describe to non-oven people who never tasted cooked dishes. However, it takes time and there are number of responsibilities involved and there are huge number of people who think its just waste of time when they can simply go burger king or avoid eating at all until they must. That is not nothing. Yes, it can go bad, like anything else in life. You can die in fire using oven too. I think this is rational explanation. So called "Socratic procreation" (in short, where your procreate via recognized work/ideas instead of sexual act) on the other hand, is IMO meaningless (and maybe even compensation) for the very reasons mentioned in the blog post. That said, I do want to have a health span (not life span) as long as possible and that has nothing to do with all of this. I can freeze my head in a jar but that doesn't really count as health (while it could be counted as life).

kiba 6y ago
Your body isn't designed to do anything. We are like viruses in the sense of whatever works, works. While folks who don't reproduce are summarily eliminated from the gene pool. Not because they don't have value, but because they don't 'work'. The fact that you find having children fulfilling is about you, not about anybody else.
- runsWphotons 6y ago
  Viruses are designed to infect, multiply and spread. Also humans are not viruses. I know that isn't what you meant since you specified "in the sense that...". But this kind of analogy seems to me to lead to bad thinking.
  - kiba 6y ago
    Viruses aren't designed to do anything either.
    - runsWphotons 6y ago
      Sometimes they are. (But that's not what I mean originally. You seem to object to the word design?)
- majkinetor 6y ago
  > Your body isn't designed to do anything. Yes it is. Without procreation species can't exist, so it must be designed to procreate. The process takes quite a lot of energy which is precious to all forms of life and there are all sorts of mechanisms in place to make you wanna do that. Design. > The fact that you find having children fulfilling is about you, not about anybody else. Everything is first about you. Its illusion that some things look like they aren't on frontend.
causasui 6y ago
I'm curious if you're able to think of one non-selfish reason to have children? You mention having a child is an experience in which you wish to take part; you relish the thought of being less self-centered. Too little weight is given to the fact that no consciousness exists because it has willed itself into existence. Put another way, nothing consents to being given life. A feeling mind will come into being, suffer throughout life, likely watch you die, and eventually die itself because you wanted to feel fulfilled. I want a child, therefore I will bring one into this world. Often, it's said having a child is an act of selflessness. I see it the opposite way. On the flip side, adopting a child is the most selfless thing you can do, in my opinion. Why do only 4% of American households w/ children have an adopted child*? The OP's blog post is surmising it's because we procreate to achieve some tangible sense of immortality, as we consider the passing of our genetic material to be the next best thing to actual in-the-flesh eternal life. The anthropologist Earnest Becker wrote a book in the '70s called The Denial of Death which reaches much the same conclusion, only broader: that all of civilization is an effort to achieve symbolic if not literal immortality. * https://adoptionnetwork.com/knowledge-hub/adoption-myths-facts/domestic-us-statistics/ https://adoptionnetwork.com/knowledge-hub/adoption-myths-fac...
- slibhb 6y ago
  > I'm curious if you're able to think of one non-selfish reason to have childrena? I enjoy being alive and experiencing things. I think this is true for most people. Therefore having children is moral.
  - KronisLV 6y ago
    But being brought into this world and knowing that one day your life is most likely going to end and that there's almost nothing that you can feasibly do to avoid it can easily balance out the positive aspects of being alive. Personally, after often experiencing such existential dread and finding that it impacts my life in a pretty negative way, i've largely switched over to the nihilism school of thought. Then, it can be argued that bringing children into this world just to doom them to a similar fate would be pretty immoral.
grishka 6y ago
> My body is designed so that it can do this. Hence, not having children is against the design. Your body is also designed to age and die, by the way. What is the reason to follow that design, anyway? Why not change it to serve your own interests better? > I do want to have a health span (not life span) So why exactly would you like to die?
- majkinetor 6y ago
  > Your body is also designed to age and die, by the way. What is the reason to follow that design, anyway? No reason. I must. I am sure tech is here already to rise babies externally. That still doesn't change my design to want them because of feromones, reproductive system etc. When we are able to change that design (via viral patches for example) then we can talk about alternatives. > So why exactly would you like to die? I wouldn't like to die. I must die by design. There are many good reasons for it nowdays. When we have access to unlimited resources by becoming type 3 civilization, then we can talk about non dying. Even then, its unknown what infinite life brings to table. What if it backfires someway like in altered carbon ? Would you like that kind of society ? Like I said, health span. That is achievable nowdays. Lets be realistic or we can talk about pink elephants on the Mars too.
  - grishka 6y ago
    > No reason. I must. You're a conscious being that has free will. Technically, the only thing you "must" obey is physics. Our ability to override these animalistic instincts is one of the things that makes us distinct from animals. Besides, making life-changing decisions with "no reason" is... I don't know... irresponsible with regard to yourself? > That still doesn't change my design to want them because of feromones, reproductive system etc. This doesn't make you want to have kids. This makes you want to have sex. > Like I said, health span. That is achievable nowdays. I don't think lifespan and healthspan are separable like you suggest. How do you even imagine that? A 30-year-old-looking person in perfect health just suddenly dying (of what?) at the chronological age of 90? That's not how this works. People die "of old age" because, well, they age, and their health declines as they age. If you don't age, your risk of death doesn't increase. That simple.

kiba 6y ago

Your body isn't designed to do anything. We are like viruses in the sense of whatever works, works. While folks who don't reproduce are summarily eliminated from the gene pool. Not because they don't have value, but because they don't 'work'. The fact that you find having children fulfilling is about you, not about anybody else.

runsWphotons 6y ago
Viruses are designed to infect, multiply and spread. Also humans are not viruses. I know that isn't what you meant since you specified "in the sense that...". But this kind of analogy seems to me to lead to bad thinking.
- kiba 6y ago
  Viruses aren't designed to do anything either.
  - runsWphotons 6y ago
    Sometimes they are. (But that's not what I mean originally. You seem to object to the word design?)
majkinetor 6y ago
> Your body isn't designed to do anything. Yes it is. Without procreation species can't exist, so it must be designed to procreate. The process takes quite a lot of energy which is precious to all forms of life and there are all sorts of mechanisms in place to make you wanna do that. Design. > The fact that you find having children fulfilling is about you, not about anybody else. Everything is first about you. Its illusion that some things look like they aren't on frontend.

causasui 6y ago

I'm curious if you're able to think of one non-selfish reason to have children? You mention having a child is an experience in which you wish to take part; you relish the thought of being less self-centered. Too little weight is given to the fact that no consciousness exists because it has willed itself into existence. Put another way, nothing consents to being given life. A feeling mind will come into being, suffer throughout life, likely watch you die, and eventually die itself because you wanted to feel fulfilled. I want a child, therefore I will bring one into this world. Often, it's said having a child is an act of selflessness. I see it the opposite way. On the flip side, adopting a child is the most selfless thing you can do, in my opinion. Why do only 4% of American households w/ children have an adopted child*? The OP's blog post is surmising it's because we procreate to achieve some tangible sense of immortality, as we consider the passing of our genetic material to be the next best thing to actual in-the-flesh eternal life. The anthropologist Earnest Becker wrote a book in the '70s called The Denial of Death which reaches much the same conclusion, only broader: that all of civilization is an effort to achieve symbolic if not literal immortality. * https://adoptionnetwork.com/knowledge-hub/adoption-myths-facts/domestic-us-statistics/ https://adoptionnetwork.com/knowledge-hub/adoption-myths-fac...

slibhb 6y ago
> I'm curious if you're able to think of one non-selfish reason to have childrena? I enjoy being alive and experiencing things. I think this is true for most people. Therefore having children is moral.
- KronisLV 6y ago
  But being brought into this world and knowing that one day your life is most likely going to end and that there's almost nothing that you can feasibly do to avoid it can easily balance out the positive aspects of being alive. Personally, after often experiencing such existential dread and finding that it impacts my life in a pretty negative way, i've largely switched over to the nihilism school of thought. Then, it can be argued that bringing children into this world just to doom them to a similar fate would be pretty immoral.

grishka 6y ago

> My body is designed so that it can do this. Hence, not having children is against the design. Your body is also designed to age and die, by the way. What is the reason to follow that design, anyway? Why not change it to serve your own interests better? > I do want to have a health span (not life span) So why exactly would you like to die?

majkinetor 6y ago
> Your body is also designed to age and die, by the way. What is the reason to follow that design, anyway? No reason. I must. I am sure tech is here already to rise babies externally. That still doesn't change my design to want them because of feromones, reproductive system etc. When we are able to change that design (via viral patches for example) then we can talk about alternatives. > So why exactly would you like to die? I wouldn't like to die. I must die by design. There are many good reasons for it nowdays. When we have access to unlimited resources by becoming type 3 civilization, then we can talk about non dying. Even then, its unknown what infinite life brings to table. What if it backfires someway like in altered carbon ? Would you like that kind of society ? Like I said, health span. That is achievable nowdays. Lets be realistic or we can talk about pink elephants on the Mars too.
- grishka 6y ago
  > No reason. I must. You're a conscious being that has free will. Technically, the only thing you "must" obey is physics. Our ability to override these animalistic instincts is one of the things that makes us distinct from animals. Besides, making life-changing decisions with "no reason" is... I don't know... irresponsible with regard to yourself? > That still doesn't change my design to want them because of feromones, reproductive system etc. This doesn't make you want to have kids. This makes you want to have sex. > Like I said, health span. That is achievable nowdays. I don't think lifespan and healthspan are separable like you suggest. How do you even imagine that? A 30-year-old-looking person in perfect health just suddenly dying (of what?) at the chronological age of 90? That's not how this works. People die "of old age" because, well, they age, and their health declines as they age. If you don't age, your risk of death doesn't increase. That simple.