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Is there any commercial radio for private use with proper encryption? It seems the only ones you can find are limited to 48 bit key or so.

GekkePrutser 6y ago
There's not much market for them, that's the issue. You can't use much transmit power on a free license. And hams are not allowed to use encryption as a licensing condition. The idea behind this is that you're a community. It's not really meant for private communication. Some business radios offer excellent encryption but can only be used with an expensive commercial license. The Family radio service ones are more for like walky talky use on the go where encryption isn't so important, and they have more limited range.
- userbinator 6y ago
  And hams are not allowed to use encryption as a licensing condition. But are they allowed to use steganography...? Same difference, really.
  - Mister_X 6y ago
    I assume you mean Digital Modes? And it's not the same, because anyone can "read" the digital message with the same codec, encription can't be, unless one has the key.
  - GekkePrutser 6y ago
    Not really either no. Of course by its very nature steganography is hidden. So it's hard to detect. Really the communication we can have is quite restricted. The same reason we're not allowed to broadcast 'radio programs' as such (with the exception of the weekly news reading etc). Some countries also prohibit political or religious discussion. The license is meant to stimulate research and technical exploration. If you're looking for ways around it, you should consider whether this is really the hobby for you, as you probably want it for something it's not intended for. It's not a "production" communication service. It's a chance to build and explore technology. There are some exceptions though like authentication and control systems for things like amateur satellites and repeaters. The same in emergencies: Encrypted emergency comms is allowed, such as passing personal messages from disaster-stricken areas. Of course things like personal details of survivors are not passed in the clear. But during normal ham operation these things are not allowed and for good reason.
- bretuls 6y ago
  I was asking about walky talkies. For some reason strong encryption is only allowed for gov use (emergency services, ...) Since they do have weak encryption, there does seem to be some demand for that.
  - GekkePrutser 6y ago
    Ah maybe that's a US specific thing. Business radio licensees here in Europe have access to the same strong encryption that the government use.
    - wl 6y ago
      It's available to business radio licensees in the US, too.
  - justin66 6y ago
    Motorola's RMM2050, a license-free MURS radio, has a built-in scrambler which I just assume is not great. It's got headset I/O so I don't think there's any reason you couldn't use a more effective scrambling headset. https://shop.motorolasolutions.com/rmm2050-two-way-radio-for-business-5-channel-murs/product/RMM2050BHLAA https://shop.motorolasolutions.com/rmm2050-two-way-radio-for... No idea what your application is but since you said "strong encryption" the idea of using a MURS radio modem kind of sprang to mind. Some examples: https://www.raveon.com/license-free-radio-modems/ https://www.raveon.com/license-free-radio-modems/ https://www.esteem.com/esteem-products/ https://www.esteem.com/esteem-products/
wl 6y ago
Project 25 radios are commercially available and can use 256 bit AES. The business radio license required isn't difficult or expensive to get, but the hardware and programming is probably a little too expensive for most people.
- duggerd 6y ago
  Most P25 radios also require a specialized device (keyloader) for loading encryption keys that's separate from the vendor's programming software for channels and other parameters. Used keyloaders that support AES-256 still go for $2,000+ (Motorola KVL3000+/KVL4000). A couple years ago I developed an open source one: https://github.com/KFDtool/KFDtool https://github.com/KFDtool/KFDtool
ac29 6y ago
Here's a handful of Kenwood radios that support DES/AES: https://comms.kenwood.com/en/solutions/functions/list.php?function=11 https://comms.kenwood.com/en/solutions/functions/list.php?fu...

GekkePrutser 6y ago

There's not much market for them, that's the issue. You can't use much transmit power on a free license. And hams are not allowed to use encryption as a licensing condition. The idea behind this is that you're a community. It's not really meant for private communication. Some business radios offer excellent encryption but can only be used with an expensive commercial license. The Family radio service ones are more for like walky talky use on the go where encryption isn't so important, and they have more limited range.

userbinator 6y ago
And hams are not allowed to use encryption as a licensing condition. But are they allowed to use steganography...? Same difference, really.
- Mister_X 6y ago
  I assume you mean Digital Modes? And it's not the same, because anyone can "read" the digital message with the same codec, encription can't be, unless one has the key.
- GekkePrutser 6y ago
  Not really either no. Of course by its very nature steganography is hidden. So it's hard to detect. Really the communication we can have is quite restricted. The same reason we're not allowed to broadcast 'radio programs' as such (with the exception of the weekly news reading etc). Some countries also prohibit political or religious discussion. The license is meant to stimulate research and technical exploration. If you're looking for ways around it, you should consider whether this is really the hobby for you, as you probably want it for something it's not intended for. It's not a "production" communication service. It's a chance to build and explore technology. There are some exceptions though like authentication and control systems for things like amateur satellites and repeaters. The same in emergencies: Encrypted emergency comms is allowed, such as passing personal messages from disaster-stricken areas. Of course things like personal details of survivors are not passed in the clear. But during normal ham operation these things are not allowed and for good reason.
bretuls 6y ago
I was asking about walky talkies. For some reason strong encryption is only allowed for gov use (emergency services, ...) Since they do have weak encryption, there does seem to be some demand for that.
- GekkePrutser 6y ago
  Ah maybe that's a US specific thing. Business radio licensees here in Europe have access to the same strong encryption that the government use.
  - wl 6y ago
    It's available to business radio licensees in the US, too.
- justin66 6y ago
  Motorola's RMM2050, a license-free MURS radio, has a built-in scrambler which I just assume is not great. It's got headset I/O so I don't think there's any reason you couldn't use a more effective scrambling headset. https://shop.motorolasolutions.com/rmm2050-two-way-radio-for-business-5-channel-murs/product/RMM2050BHLAA https://shop.motorolasolutions.com/rmm2050-two-way-radio-for... No idea what your application is but since you said "strong encryption" the idea of using a MURS radio modem kind of sprang to mind. Some examples: https://www.raveon.com/license-free-radio-modems/ https://www.raveon.com/license-free-radio-modems/ https://www.esteem.com/esteem-products/ https://www.esteem.com/esteem-products/

wl 6y ago

Project 25 radios are commercially available and can use 256 bit AES. The business radio license required isn't difficult or expensive to get, but the hardware and programming is probably a little too expensive for most people.

duggerd 6y ago
Most P25 radios also require a specialized device (keyloader) for loading encryption keys that's separate from the vendor's programming software for channels and other parameters. Used keyloaders that support AES-256 still go for $2,000+ (Motorola KVL3000+/KVL4000). A couple years ago I developed an open source one: https://github.com/KFDtool/KFDtool https://github.com/KFDtool/KFDtool

ac29 6y ago

Here's a handful of Kenwood radios that support DES/AES: https://comms.kenwood.com/en/solutions/functions/list.php?function=11 https://comms.kenwood.com/en/solutions/functions/list.php?fu...