6 ms·

Plastic disposal is a clear example of the failure of current economics. It's clearly bad for the environment and has long term costs, but there basically isn'

Plastic disposal is a clear example of the failure of current economics. It's clearly bad for the environment and has long term costs, but there basically isn't any way economics to calculate that or incent it to not be done. So IMO, recycling is an exploratory exercise in seeing if we can socially engineer behavior that is "better". The cynic would say "it doesn't", but I could argue civilization is built on short term economic calculations and resulting social/behavioral engineering that makes that impossible. If there was any way to know, I'd be fascinated to see if there are real measurements in the drop in altruism, either from the psychological conditioning of our society, or making altruistic people less able to procreate.

orev 6y ago
There definitely is a way to deal with this in economics: taxes. If you tax the companies making the plastics, the price will go up, and they have an incentive to do things differently. Taxes are a crucial pillar of even a purely capitalist society, it’s just that they are not easy to implement politically.
- hntrader 6y ago
  Pigovian taxes are my favourite response to environmental damage. In theory, everyone should be on board. The fiscal conservatives should want it, since negative externalities are a violation of the non-aggression principle, and taxes are the least intrusive way to encourage change, it's basically delegating the specifics of the change to the market. It is consistent with their principles to want it. It seems like the easiest way to potentially get the most people on board. I also genuinely believe it's the best solution most of the time. The market is ingenious as long as prices accurately reflect costs and benefits.
- specialist 6y ago
  I read u/AtlasBarfed's point being that we don't have a proper way to put a price on the externalities. To your point, onerously high taxes could largely remove plastics from the waste stream, mooting the need to determine the cost. I'd like to go even further. Incentives and prizes and grants and whatever-it-takes to find alternatives. eg Bulk pills in plant-based baggies, instead of monthly oversized labeled bottles and caps. Nudge the culture and expectations. Every little bit would help. Because better is better.
  - sep_field 6y ago
    The onerously high taxes could help pay for the incentives, prizes, and grants.
- alistairSH 6y ago
  LOL @ the downvotes. Not sure why, what orev said is true - taxing externalities is generally considered (at least by economists) the best way to manage the externality. Set the tax at a level that makes it cost prohibitive to use plastics and the market will find an alternative.
lofi_lory 6y ago
I think the best use would be not microparticle-shedding plastics made from fast growing plants, deposited in the ground as carbon sinks. Something degradable, but not in anaerobic conditions.
ArkanExplorer 6y ago
90% of ocean plastic comes from Asia and Africa: http://odinafrica.org/about-us/news/217-90-percent-of-ocean-plastic-waste-comes-from-asia-and-africa.html#:~:text=News%20and%20Updates-,90%20percent%20of%20ocean%20plastic%20waste%20comes%20from%20Asia%20and,rivers%20in%20Asia%20and%20Africa http://odinafrica.org/about-us/news/217-90-percent-of-ocean-.... We need to prohibit Western companies from packaging food and FMCG for the developing world in plastic - until both the disposal infrastructure and societal attitudes around pollution and environmental management change. Or, charge those polluters to build that infrastructure or change those attitudes. Here are the biggest polluters: CocaCola (USA) PepsiCo (USA) Nestle (Switzerland) Unilever (UK) Mondelez (USA) Mars (USA) P&G (USA) Phillip Morris (USA) Colgate-Palmolive (USA) Perfetti van Melle (Italy) https://www.marketwatch.com/story/coca-cola-pepsico-and-nestle-top-10-worst-plastic-polluters-of-2020-11607465840#:~:text=Coca%2DCola%2C%20PepsiCo%20and%20Nestl%C3%A9%20top%20a%20list%20of%20the,was%20ranked%20the%20world's%20No https://www.marketwatch.com/story/coca-cola-pepsico-and-nest.... I would suggest that a targeted protest and political lobbying campaign against the headquarters of those companies would be more effective than any individual effort to clean up plastic pollution.
- radicalbyte 6y ago
  A lot of that plastic is shipped in from USA/EU.
  - maxerickson 6y ago
    Why would they buy plastic and throw it in the river? The US has plenty of landfill space, we aren't paying to ship plastic to Asia.
    - xyzzy123 6y ago
      Bulk shipping to asia in particular is very cheap due to the volume of empty containers going in that direction. Not sure about other places. Countries that recycle plastic have people pick out the good bits cheaply in hellish facilities, profit off selling the high grade recycling, the rest is "waste waste" to be gotten rid of somehow. Dumping it in the ocean is quite cheap. The sorted plastic used to be a thing that you could mix with virgin plastic to get a cheaper product. Since China's waste import bans, I believe it's actually more expensive than virgin plastic, partly because it costs more to produce now and partly because demand is driven by manufacturers who want to have a certain % recycled plastic in their product for marketing reasons. The higher price incentivises other countries to import and process mixed plastic waste instead. They of course will also have to find a way to get rid of the not-useful portions of mixed plastic waste.

orev 6y ago

There definitely is a way to deal with this in economics: taxes. If you tax the companies making the plastics, the price will go up, and they have an incentive to do things differently. Taxes are a crucial pillar of even a purely capitalist society, it’s just that they are not easy to implement politically.

hntrader 6y ago
Pigovian taxes are my favourite response to environmental damage. In theory, everyone should be on board. The fiscal conservatives should want it, since negative externalities are a violation of the non-aggression principle, and taxes are the least intrusive way to encourage change, it's basically delegating the specifics of the change to the market. It is consistent with their principles to want it. It seems like the easiest way to potentially get the most people on board. I also genuinely believe it's the best solution most of the time. The market is ingenious as long as prices accurately reflect costs and benefits.
specialist 6y ago
I read u/AtlasBarfed's point being that we don't have a proper way to put a price on the externalities. To your point, onerously high taxes could largely remove plastics from the waste stream, mooting the need to determine the cost. I'd like to go even further. Incentives and prizes and grants and whatever-it-takes to find alternatives. eg Bulk pills in plant-based baggies, instead of monthly oversized labeled bottles and caps. Nudge the culture and expectations. Every little bit would help. Because better is better.
- sep_field 6y ago
  The onerously high taxes could help pay for the incentives, prizes, and grants.
alistairSH 6y ago
LOL @ the downvotes. Not sure why, what orev said is true - taxing externalities is generally considered (at least by economists) the best way to manage the externality. Set the tax at a level that makes it cost prohibitive to use plastics and the market will find an alternative.

lofi_lory 6y ago

I think the best use would be not microparticle-shedding plastics made from fast growing plants, deposited in the ground as carbon sinks. Something degradable, but not in anaerobic conditions.

ArkanExplorer 6y ago

90% of ocean plastic comes from Asia and Africa: http://odinafrica.org/about-us/news/217-90-percent-of-ocean-plastic-waste-comes-from-asia-and-africa.html#:~:text=News%20and%20Updates-,90%20percent%20of%20ocean%20plastic%20waste%20comes%20from%20Asia%20and,rivers%20in%20Asia%20and%20Africa http://odinafrica.org/about-us/news/217-90-percent-of-ocean-.... We need to prohibit Western companies from packaging food and FMCG for the developing world in plastic - until both the disposal infrastructure and societal attitudes around pollution and environmental management change. Or, charge those polluters to build that infrastructure or change those attitudes. Here are the biggest polluters: CocaCola (USA) PepsiCo (USA) Nestle (Switzerland) Unilever (UK) Mondelez (USA) Mars (USA) P&G (USA) Phillip Morris (USA) Colgate-Palmolive (USA) Perfetti van Melle (Italy) https://www.marketwatch.com/story/coca-cola-pepsico-and-nestle-top-10-worst-plastic-polluters-of-2020-11607465840#:~:text=Coca%2DCola%2C%20PepsiCo%20and%20Nestl%C3%A9%20top%20a%20list%20of%20the,was%20ranked%20the%20world's%20No https://www.marketwatch.com/story/coca-cola-pepsico-and-nest.... I would suggest that a targeted protest and political lobbying campaign against the headquarters of those companies would be more effective than any individual effort to clean up plastic pollution.

radicalbyte 6y ago
A lot of that plastic is shipped in from USA/EU.
- maxerickson 6y ago
  Why would they buy plastic and throw it in the river? The US has plenty of landfill space, we aren't paying to ship plastic to Asia.
  - xyzzy123 6y ago
    Bulk shipping to asia in particular is very cheap due to the volume of empty containers going in that direction. Not sure about other places. Countries that recycle plastic have people pick out the good bits cheaply in hellish facilities, profit off selling the high grade recycling, the rest is "waste waste" to be gotten rid of somehow. Dumping it in the ocean is quite cheap. The sorted plastic used to be a thing that you could mix with virgin plastic to get a cheaper product. Since China's waste import bans, I believe it's actually more expensive than virgin plastic, partly because it costs more to produce now and partly because demand is driven by manufacturers who want to have a certain % recycled plastic in their product for marketing reasons. The higher price incentivises other countries to import and process mixed plastic waste instead. They of course will also have to find a way to get rid of the not-useful portions of mixed plastic waste.