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Memory Techniques from Vedic Learning [pdf]

111 points by keiferski 6y ago

boxed 6y ago
More pseudo scientific bs from Hindu nationalists.
- ajju 6y ago
  The article focuses on texts of Hinduism but I don’t understand the criticism. The article seems to accurately describe how vedic verses were memorized using simple techniques like chunking and chaining. The author starts by pointing out that pretty much everyone uses these techniques to memorize phone numbers, so I don’t see any surreptitious glorification of religion here.
  - mindentropy 6y ago
    Maybe I am missing something but where is the criticism?
    - keiferski 6y ago
      It’s a reply to a dead comment about Hindu nationalists.
ajju 6y ago
Fascinating. As a child, I semi-reluctantly learned vedic chanting when staying with relatives over the summer. It was very interesting to understand the “algorithms” behind the techniques they used to have us memorize each “shlok”. As the author says, these served an important purpose to transmit knowledge to future generations when writing materials and books were scarce and delicate.
- naruvimama 6y ago
  The idea that memorization was used due to a lack of writing material is just a modern and shallow interpretation. The ancients considered written text as less authentic, and rightly so. Oral knowledge is spread among the populance and can not be destroyed or distorted by few actors.
  - keiferski 6y ago
    It seems increasingly obvious to me that memorization and learning play a really important role in maintaining basic intellectual standards. Everything can’t be googled and even if it could be, retrieval isn’t equivalent to knowledge. Having personally memorized a lot of things via Anki, there is a noticeable difference when you can “chew on” something mentally at a subconscious level.
    - moneywoes 6y ago
      Any tips for using anki?
      - bloodorange 6y ago
        I'd suggest spending the time needed to read through the documentation they have. It's not a lot of reading and it helps you understand how it works, what choices it makes and subsequently, it is easier to figure out for yourself how you want to use it. https://apps.ankiweb.net/docs/manual20.html https://apps.ankiweb.net/docs/manual20.html
      - keiferski 6y ago
        Sure! 1. Use Cloze cards, not regular ones. Much more powerful. Also learn the shortcut for applying the Cloze label to a text selection. 2. Always create your own cards. I never download premade ones. 3. Break down things into small pieces. Cards should only be a sentence or two maximum. 4. Use audio, images, and animated gifs. Especially with languages, adding audio files to the cards is a game changer. 5. Create a deck for small random things and add them occasionally. For example, I can understand the alphabets in various foreign languages because I added the letters to Anki a few years ago. 6. Try adding stuff that you wouldn’t normally consider “necessary to memorize.” For example, a daily journal entry and notes from books you’ve read. Spaced Repetition guarantees that you will remember them over time. I try to do this with every book I read.
thecleaner 6y ago
I mean yeah we get it. Everything from Einstein's equation to memory techniques to anatomy to the cure for goddamn covid was in the Vedas. Can we have less of these please ? I am sure India the country has contributed other things worth show-and-tell after the Vedas were written.
RcouF1uZ4gsC 6y ago
> The oral tradition of vedic learning has preserved the entire vedic texts by purely human memory for several generations. This in an enormous accomplishment given the vast corpus of text preserved without any errors creeping in.This has been made possible by a diligently devised systematic scheme of chanting the vedic corpus. A system of chanting for memory has been used since pre-history across many cultures. See for example Greek epic poetry, Hebrew Scripture, Arabic Koran, Anglo-Saxon Beowulf, Viking sagas. In ptr-literate societies, bards were able to memorize huge amounts of information and recite to their listeners. Much of the poetry with its rhyme/meter/repetition was written that way to aid in memorization. That sort of memorization got a lot less as literacy grew and people could just read stuff for themselves, but it was pretty widespread and certainly not something unique to the Vedic tradition.
- duskwuff 6y ago
  > This in an enormous accomplishment given the vast corpus of text preserved without any errors creeping in. This bit is particularly questionable. It's unproveable -- if a text was only transmitted orally, there's no way to compare its modern form to an older version -- and it's probably wrong. The short-range memorization techniques described in the article don't guard against larger-scale errors in memorization, like omitting a "chapter" of a text, nor do they prevent single-word changes, like a student mishearing a word for another similar-sounding word.
  - priyadarshy 6y ago
    I disagree, since it was spread orally and these texts were widespread in the subcontinent you could measure the similarity in different current renditions. If you looked at enough people's renderings you could even get a sense of how the transmission corrupts over time.
  - hawk_ 6y ago
    apparently brahmins in different parts of India, speaking different languages, from different schools, separated for generations recite these texts identically. while it doesn't prove anything it's plausible that due to these techniques and processes that have been able to preserve these texts verbatim.
abledon 6y ago
do you think if, for say, 20 generations, your family practiced these mental exercises... would your DNA/RNA (more % turned 'on'[1]) be primed for increased memorization ? [1] https://science.howstuffworks.com/life/genetic/genes-turned-off-on.htm https://science.howstuffworks.com/life/genetic/genes-turned-...
- keiferski 6y ago
  From my understanding, this is essentially Lamarckism, which was not taken as fact for a long time but has (recently?) been investigated again. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lamarckism https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lamarckism
  - bulek 6y ago
    Counterpoint: Epigenetics is a thing, which is influenced by the parents life style. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epigenetics_of_Human_Development https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epigenetics_of_Human_Developme... https://sciencing.com/epigenetics-definition-how-it-works-examples-13719187.html https://sciencing.com/epigenetics-definition-how-it-works-ex... >Other studies have looked at the effect of famine. When mothers were exposed to famine during pregnancy, as was the case in Holland in 1944 and 1945, their children had a higher incidence of obesity and coronary disease compared to mothers not exposed to famine. The higher risks were traced to reduced DNA methylation of a gene producing an insulin-like growth factor. Such epigenetic effects can be inherited over several generations. >Exposure of parents to cocaine may affect memory. I can't find evidence of it, but it seems reasonable to extrapolate that long term life style choices will also affect epigenetics for the better.
    - keiferski 6y ago
      There have been similar studies on male fitness level at the time of conception. There is growing scientific evidence in human and animal studies that should inspire every father-to-be to start exercising more and eating healthier before conceiving a baby. A wide range of studies have found that fathers who are obese at the time of conception pass on a predisposition to their children and grandchildren to be overweight, to develop diabetes, or both. https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/the-athletes-way/201401/physically-fit-fathers-may-have-healthier-children https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/the-athletes-way/201...
buggythebug 6y ago
Make us prout

111 points by keiferski 6y ago

boxed 6y ago

More pseudo scientific bs from Hindu nationalists.

ajju 6y ago
The article focuses on texts of Hinduism but I don’t understand the criticism. The article seems to accurately describe how vedic verses were memorized using simple techniques like chunking and chaining. The author starts by pointing out that pretty much everyone uses these techniques to memorize phone numbers, so I don’t see any surreptitious glorification of religion here.
- mindentropy 6y ago
  Maybe I am missing something but where is the criticism?
  - keiferski 6y ago
    It’s a reply to a dead comment about Hindu nationalists.

ajju 6y ago

Fascinating. As a child, I semi-reluctantly learned vedic chanting when staying with relatives over the summer. It was very interesting to understand the “algorithms” behind the techniques they used to have us memorize each “shlok”. As the author says, these served an important purpose to transmit knowledge to future generations when writing materials and books were scarce and delicate.

naruvimama 6y ago
The idea that memorization was used due to a lack of writing material is just a modern and shallow interpretation. The ancients considered written text as less authentic, and rightly so. Oral knowledge is spread among the populance and can not be destroyed or distorted by few actors.
- keiferski 6y ago
  It seems increasingly obvious to me that memorization and learning play a really important role in maintaining basic intellectual standards. Everything can’t be googled and even if it could be, retrieval isn’t equivalent to knowledge. Having personally memorized a lot of things via Anki, there is a noticeable difference when you can “chew on” something mentally at a subconscious level.
  - moneywoes 6y ago
    Any tips for using anki?
    - bloodorange 6y ago
      I'd suggest spending the time needed to read through the documentation they have. It's not a lot of reading and it helps you understand how it works, what choices it makes and subsequently, it is easier to figure out for yourself how you want to use it. https://apps.ankiweb.net/docs/manual20.html https://apps.ankiweb.net/docs/manual20.html
    - keiferski 6y ago
      Sure! 1. Use Cloze cards, not regular ones. Much more powerful. Also learn the shortcut for applying the Cloze label to a text selection. 2. Always create your own cards. I never download premade ones. 3. Break down things into small pieces. Cards should only be a sentence or two maximum. 4. Use audio, images, and animated gifs. Especially with languages, adding audio files to the cards is a game changer. 5. Create a deck for small random things and add them occasionally. For example, I can understand the alphabets in various foreign languages because I added the letters to Anki a few years ago. 6. Try adding stuff that you wouldn’t normally consider “necessary to memorize.” For example, a daily journal entry and notes from books you’ve read. Spaced Repetition guarantees that you will remember them over time. I try to do this with every book I read.

thecleaner 6y ago

I mean yeah we get it. Everything from Einstein's equation to memory techniques to anatomy to the cure for goddamn covid was in the Vedas. Can we have less of these please ? I am sure India the country has contributed other things worth show-and-tell after the Vedas were written.

RcouF1uZ4gsC 6y ago

> The oral tradition of vedic learning has preserved the entire vedic texts by purely human memory for several generations. This in an enormous accomplishment given the vast corpus of text preserved without any errors creeping in.This has been made possible by a diligently devised systematic scheme of chanting the vedic corpus. A system of chanting for memory has been used since pre-history across many cultures. See for example Greek epic poetry, Hebrew Scripture, Arabic Koran, Anglo-Saxon Beowulf, Viking sagas. In ptr-literate societies, bards were able to memorize huge amounts of information and recite to their listeners. Much of the poetry with its rhyme/meter/repetition was written that way to aid in memorization. That sort of memorization got a lot less as literacy grew and people could just read stuff for themselves, but it was pretty widespread and certainly not something unique to the Vedic tradition.

duskwuff 6y ago
> This in an enormous accomplishment given the vast corpus of text preserved without any errors creeping in. This bit is particularly questionable. It's unproveable -- if a text was only transmitted orally, there's no way to compare its modern form to an older version -- and it's probably wrong. The short-range memorization techniques described in the article don't guard against larger-scale errors in memorization, like omitting a "chapter" of a text, nor do they prevent single-word changes, like a student mishearing a word for another similar-sounding word.
- priyadarshy 6y ago
  I disagree, since it was spread orally and these texts were widespread in the subcontinent you could measure the similarity in different current renditions. If you looked at enough people's renderings you could even get a sense of how the transmission corrupts over time.
- hawk_ 6y ago
  apparently brahmins in different parts of India, speaking different languages, from different schools, separated for generations recite these texts identically. while it doesn't prove anything it's plausible that due to these techniques and processes that have been able to preserve these texts verbatim.

abledon 6y ago

do you think if, for say, 20 generations, your family practiced these mental exercises... would your DNA/RNA (more % turned 'on'[1]) be primed for increased memorization ? [1] https://science.howstuffworks.com/life/genetic/genes-turned-off-on.htm https://science.howstuffworks.com/life/genetic/genes-turned-...

keiferski 6y ago
From my understanding, this is essentially Lamarckism, which was not taken as fact for a long time but has (recently?) been investigated again. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lamarckism https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lamarckism
- bulek 6y ago
  Counterpoint: Epigenetics is a thing, which is influenced by the parents life style. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epigenetics_of_Human_Development https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epigenetics_of_Human_Developme... https://sciencing.com/epigenetics-definition-how-it-works-examples-13719187.html https://sciencing.com/epigenetics-definition-how-it-works-ex... >Other studies have looked at the effect of famine. When mothers were exposed to famine during pregnancy, as was the case in Holland in 1944 and 1945, their children had a higher incidence of obesity and coronary disease compared to mothers not exposed to famine. The higher risks were traced to reduced DNA methylation of a gene producing an insulin-like growth factor. Such epigenetic effects can be inherited over several generations. >Exposure of parents to cocaine may affect memory. I can't find evidence of it, but it seems reasonable to extrapolate that long term life style choices will also affect epigenetics for the better.
  - keiferski 6y ago
    There have been similar studies on male fitness level at the time of conception. There is growing scientific evidence in human and animal studies that should inspire every father-to-be to start exercising more and eating healthier before conceiving a baby. A wide range of studies have found that fathers who are obese at the time of conception pass on a predisposition to their children and grandchildren to be overweight, to develop diabetes, or both. https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/the-athletes-way/201401/physically-fit-fathers-may-have-healthier-children https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/the-athletes-way/201...

buggythebug 6y ago

Make us prout