4 ms·

I've seen just as much bullying at elective academic summer camps (e.g. Space Camp, JHU CTY), as at public schools. Both as a student and as a teacher. I don't

I've seen just as much bullying at elective academic summer camps (e.g. Space Camp, JHU CTY), as at public schools. Both as a student and as a teacher. I don't agree that it's necessarily a product of the American public school system. Particularly, in my experience, bullying tends to be exacerbated during periods of social uncertainty, such as a change in the class cohort. The bullies feel vulnerable and are looking to prove themselves, and the bullied are vulnerable, having not yet had any chance to form social support groups.

hn_throwaway_99 6y ago
Totally agree, which is why I think junior high is often the worst when it comes to bullying. In my school district elementary schools (up to 6th grade) had about 100 kids per class, and they all fed into one massive junior high that had about 1500 kids total in 7th and 8th grades. Plus, that is the time when kids are going through puberty (often at vastly different rates and times), trying to figure out their own bodies and hormones. Your description of "The bullies feel vulnerable and are looking to prove themselves, and the bullied are vulnerable, having not yet had any chance to form social support groups." was spot on in my experience. Frankly, I don't understand the purpose of junior high at all, seems like it would make much more sense to just have elementary schools go up to, say, 8th grade, then go to a high school (lots of private schools already do this).
- Benjammer 6y ago
  > junior high is often the worst I worked at a summer camp for a few years. It's split into "sessions" for different age groups by grade level: 4/5, 6/7, 8/9, 10/11/12. It was staggering how bad the bullying was in the 8/9th grade session compared to all other grade levels. The rest of the groups barely ever had any issues at all other than isolated, subjective cases, while the 8th/9th grade sessions would almost all have HUGE drama with kids (boys and girls both) changing friend groups, kicking kids out of their group, and joining new groups, all within the span of one week at camp. More drama than a reality TV show, it was nuts. I agree about eliminating middle school / junior high. It's too narrow a band of ages, they aren't exposed to enough more mature kids to learn how to act, or much less mature kids to show them a reflection of what they used to be like.
  - jfengel 6y ago
    I had the impression that the goal was to narrow the bullying to each other, so they don't pick on the younger ones and get picked on by the older ones. If they happen to learn anything in the meantime, great, but it really felt more like I was being warehoused through puberty than anything else.
- pferde 6y ago
  That is how it is done in many European countries - elementary school has eight grades (used to be nine a few decades ago in some places), then it's 4-6 years of high school, and then optionally a college.
  - marwis 6y ago
    Worth noting is that some countries such as Poland switched away from this system 2 decades ago and experienced exactly all the issues attributed here to 6 grade elementary schools. They have since switched back to 8 grade elementary school.
kar5pt 6y ago
Those kinds of summer camps usually mimic the structure of school systems, so I don't see how you're disproving anything with that example.

hn_throwaway_99 6y ago

Totally agree, which is why I think junior high is often the worst when it comes to bullying. In my school district elementary schools (up to 6th grade) had about 100 kids per class, and they all fed into one massive junior high that had about 1500 kids total in 7th and 8th grades. Plus, that is the time when kids are going through puberty (often at vastly different rates and times), trying to figure out their own bodies and hormones. Your description of "The bullies feel vulnerable and are looking to prove themselves, and the bullied are vulnerable, having not yet had any chance to form social support groups." was spot on in my experience. Frankly, I don't understand the purpose of junior high at all, seems like it would make much more sense to just have elementary schools go up to, say, 8th grade, then go to a high school (lots of private schools already do this).

Benjammer 6y ago
> junior high is often the worst I worked at a summer camp for a few years. It's split into "sessions" for different age groups by grade level: 4/5, 6/7, 8/9, 10/11/12. It was staggering how bad the bullying was in the 8/9th grade session compared to all other grade levels. The rest of the groups barely ever had any issues at all other than isolated, subjective cases, while the 8th/9th grade sessions would almost all have HUGE drama with kids (boys and girls both) changing friend groups, kicking kids out of their group, and joining new groups, all within the span of one week at camp. More drama than a reality TV show, it was nuts. I agree about eliminating middle school / junior high. It's too narrow a band of ages, they aren't exposed to enough more mature kids to learn how to act, or much less mature kids to show them a reflection of what they used to be like.
- jfengel 6y ago
  I had the impression that the goal was to narrow the bullying to each other, so they don't pick on the younger ones and get picked on by the older ones. If they happen to learn anything in the meantime, great, but it really felt more like I was being warehoused through puberty than anything else.
pferde 6y ago
That is how it is done in many European countries - elementary school has eight grades (used to be nine a few decades ago in some places), then it's 4-6 years of high school, and then optionally a college.
- marwis 6y ago
  Worth noting is that some countries such as Poland switched away from this system 2 decades ago and experienced exactly all the issues attributed here to 6 grade elementary schools. They have since switched back to 8 grade elementary school.

kar5pt 6y ago

Those kinds of summer camps usually mimic the structure of school systems, so I don't see how you're disproving anything with that example.